Rear Wheel Drive P85 is a Missed Opportunity for Tesla

[Alysashley79]

It was a $15k price difference , but actually a few thousand less than that if you were optioning leather seats and air suspension on the S. So more like $12k premium.

when I took delivery of my P85 in November 13 the P85 was a base price $10k more than the. S85.
When the D was announced and there was the short window that you could order both a P85 and a P85D the price difference was only $5k. Then they did away with the P85 and my car species today exactly the same would be $18k more than it was back then.

 

[fiksegts]

that is not the same as having the car on the track where you have to accelerate and decelerate repeatedly....

the P85 actually handles repeat acceleration better than the P85D, I have a video of a P85D and P85 racing repeatedly, during the 2nd or 3rd race the P85 actually pulled away from the P85D.....

Well I've done sustained 100mph for 80 miles straight in my P85 so I can disprove that theory.

 

[Gizmotoy]

If the Tesla clearly can't handle the load/heat, why keep pushing it? I would never keep running/tracking one of my ICE cars if it was too hot for it's normal operating parameters and pulling back power... of course electric vs ICE is different, but Tesla is trying to protect "something" by pulling back power and ramping up the fans into the high mode...

They're not really comparable. Only the most recent of sports cars would even have the ability to pull back power. Most ICE vehicles will simply let you overheat them. Not only that, ICE vehicles routinely overheat at track days.

This is not an EV-only problem. It's not uncommon to see some sweaty guy hop out of his car after a session because he had the heat on full blast to draw it out of the engine bay, and most veterans are keeping tabs on the temp gauge specifically because the car can't tell them it's being pushed too hard by reducing power. We don't have that problem.

Anyway, after 5 hard laps I only ever hit the first power reduction. According to the Tesla engineers at the track there were two more reductions the car would take if necessary. They also claimed the issue was mainly because the car waits too long to start ramping up the cooling. If it somehow knew ahead of time to provide more cooling (think Track Mode) that it wouldn't have been as big an issue. Anyway, the fans were much louder at the Superchargers between sessions than they were on the track. I don't think it's that big an issue. It can handle it.

 

[David_Cary]

I'm surprised at the lack of clarity here on price differences between models. The P to my knowledge was never $5k. When I was doing the math way back when (few months ago), the P85D was just a "fraction" more than what a P85+ would be +$5k for the AWD. I feel that the P85D was a better "deal" than the P.

Outside of enthusiasts (ie forum junkies), most people who get a P85+ probably load up the car (the two I know are all options except rear seats). It is the flagship and those buyers went to the P85D without question or concern.

So I appreciate the discussion of bring the P85 back but the market maybe pretty small. Personally having driven both, I'd take the P85D because of the feeling when powering out of a corner. Alas I went with the S85 because I am cheap and it is fast enough. But I gave the P85D much more thought than I gave the P85.

 

[MuppetOwl]

RWD is on its way out on many high performance cars. More and more cars will have 4wd in the future. Even BMW M5 is going for 4wd Modern 4wd systems handles better and is not possible to get traction on 500 hp + cars on normal street tires with 2wd.

The fastest production cars on nurbugring today like the Porsche 918 and Nissan Gtr have 4wd, so it proves that rwd do not perform better on the track.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

It is also possible that due to the port slowdown Tesla is unable to get enough Michelin PS2's or 9" wheels to mount on all P85D's. Given that they meet the engineering specs, Bridgestones in 245/35 may be being substituted temporarily.

I was thinking the same thing. Clearly, if the car can be driven with non-staggered 19-inch wheels, this can't be too serious an issue. I believe you are correct that the staggered wheels, which originally appeared on the P85+, were in response to a regulation in addition to a small performance benefit.

 

[JST]

Just as a data point, the P85+ service loaner I have now (on CA mfgr plates) is on 19", non-staggered winter tires. That's the recommended winter package, as I understand it.

There's nothing magical about staggered tires.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

Just as a data point, the P85+ service loaner I have now (on CA mfgr plates) is on 19", non-staggered winter tires. That's the recommended winter package, as I understand it.

There's nothing magical about staggered tires.

That is correct on the winter package. But when I called the factory yesterday, they told me that the P85D cannot be ordered with non-staggered 21-inch wheels & tires. This contradicts what some other owners have experienced when ordering. Perhaps Tesla softens this policy if they are running low on wider rear wheels or tires.

 

[mgboyes]

Tesla are at 100% production capacity - they can't make the cars fast enough. They're not "missing out" on any market segment - they are completely sold out of cars and couldn't make more if they wanted to.

In the UK at least a fully loaded P85D is pretty much the same price that a fully loaded P85+ was - slightly over £100k.

There are all sorts of rumours coming out about staggered vs non-staggered wheels, and also a switch of tyres to a new Continental ContiSport Silent that is being made specifically for the Model S. Nobody seems to know for sure. Sounds like it's the next-gen rear seat debacle all over again

 

[supratachophobia]

While I sympathize with the nearly 25k difference in S85D and P85D, I would rather they not release the P85 and keep the segment the way it is on the high end. This does a lot to help preserve the resale value of the P85's, which I think were/are a more valuable consumer segment as a whole to Tesla. I don't exactly think they are playing favorites, but it wouldnt surprise me if most of the early P85D adopters came from the P85 and if the margins on the P85 were significantly higher than other available trims. But even more importantly than that, their CPO values would take a substantial hit for any P85 in the program if you still had it sitting in the lineup as a new purchase option.

Now if you need to replace a P85 with another due to wreck, that is a tough cookie to be in. No wants to spend 10-15k more than they have to if the P85 met their needs for cargo and climate.

Very interesting comment on the P85 pulling away from the P85D on a second or third run. If I was looking to get out of a P, the time to do it would be right before the 110kw battery announcement. If you time it right, you solve the resale value problem and reduced power problem at the same time. And that announcement time is soon approaching with model x.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

So I appreciate the discussion of bring the P85 back but the market maybe pretty small. Personally having driven both, I'd take the P85D because of the feeling when powering out of a corner. Alas I went with the S85 because I am cheap and it is fast enough. But I gave the P85D much more thought than I gave the P85.

My guess is that the P85 wasn't offered at the time you made the decision, and if it were, you would have found it to be a less expensive alternative to the P85D and with better performance than the RWD S85 that you did buy.

 

[MsElectric]

Tesla would not have discontinued the P85 unless demand for it was insignificant.

The P85D at around the same price range with the additional safety and performance of AWD made the P85 irrelevant overnight for most buyers with the exception of a few enthusiasts who might likes to go sideways

From a performance and safety standpoint AWD is the way to go for a high horsepower car for the vast majority of Tesla customers.

There is a reason Mercedes retooled pretty much their entire AMG lineup to be all AWD. You can no longer buy a Mercedes AMG sedan without AWD either and the rest of the premium high performance automakers are doing the same because it improves safety, traction, and performance.

 

[JST]

Tesla would not have discontinued the P85 unless demand for it was insignificant.

I disagree. I think Tesla discontinued the P85 because it calculated that the number of potential owners that would substitute up for the P85D was higher than the number of customers that would substitute down for the S85. In other words, they were able to drive the total fleet transaction cost higher.

That doesn't mean that the demand for the P85 was insignificant--just that Tesla figured it could make more money by forcing P85 intenders to choose between AWD and having less power.

A rational decision, IOW, even if it is one that I don't really care for.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Tesla would not have discontinued the P85 unless demand for it was insignificant.

Where are you getting this stuff? Weren't you the one earlier in the thread claiming the P85/P85D price differential was a "tiny fraction"? The models didn't really overlap, so there's no way to tell what the demand would have been.

I disagree. I think Tesla discontinued the P85 because it calculated that the number of potential owners that would substitute up for the P85D was higher than the number of customers that would substitute down for the S85. In other words, they were able to drive the total fleet transaction cost higher.

That doesn't mean that the demand for the P85 was insignificant--just that Tesla figured it could make more money by forcing P85 intenders to choose between AWD and having less power.

A rational decision, IOW, even if it is one that I don't really care for.

Agreed. The demand for the P85 was high right up to the point it was discontinued. Tesla enjoyed huge success in pushing buyers to the P85, and reported they were surprised how many buyers took that option. We already taught them that a good portion of their buyers will buy the performance variant, and it makes financial sense to not cannibalize sales of the most expensive model by keeping the P85 around. Additionally, they were right in the middle of a huge options-reduction period to save costs. The choice was win-win.

They may also be taking their queues from other marques, which charge a lot more for their performance versions than the $10k Tesla was asking.

 

[MsElectric]

The bottom line is based on how well the P85D is doing the vast majority of Tesla customers care more about traction, safety, and performance than their car sliding sideways with the exception of some enthusiasts, of course

AWD enhances traction, performance, and safety and this is the reason why pretty much the entire premium auto industry is going AWD. Yes, Tesla will miss the market segment that likes drift and go sideways but that segment of customers will increasingly find a hard time buying a premium performance car without the benefit of AWD.

 

[Cyclone]

Even though I am not a Performance-oriented driver, I could see the argument for bringing back the P85. I totally understand and get killing off the P85+ with the P85D, but also removing the P85 was an interesting move. As many have said, it leaves a performance gap were many would like to see filled where they can get a performance boost, keep it RWD, and save versus "top of the line" or "flagship".

 

[MsElectric]

Even though I am not a Performance-oriented driver, I could see the argument for bringing back the P85. I totally understand and get killing off the P85+ with the P85D, but also removing the P85 was an interesting move. As many have said, it leaves a performance gap were many would like to see filled where they can get a performance boost, keep it RWD, and save versus "top of the line" or "flagship".

I completely agree with the performance gap being too large. We would have happily bought a S85D if it performed around 4.5s but at 5.2s it is slower than the current generation S class. I guess this was Tesla plan all along with the pricing. The 5.2s to 60 is going to be unremarkable for most people who want better performance compared to their E class, 5 series or S class and they all have no where to go than the P85D. I am glad they priced the P85D where they did and not higher as we would not have paid any higher for the car.

I do get the point that people are making with the lack of a RWD P version but I am just sharing my opinion that though it is a missed opportunity I don't think it affects Tesla all that because I bet most typical Model S buyers would rather have the enhanced safety, traction, and performance of AWD.

 

[dirkhh]

I disagree. I think Tesla discontinued the P85 because it calculated that the number of potential owners that would substitute up for the P85D was higher than the number of customers that would substitute down for the S85. In other words, they were able to drive the total fleet transaction cost higher.

I think you are spot on. It's a rational decision - force people who want a 'P' into a higher base price option. I'm sure there's demand for a RWD P85. And I bet after crunching the numbers Tesla decided to not offer it.
Just as they dropped to S60D in order to get people who want AWD to pony up the extra $10k for the 85. Makes perfect business sense.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Tesla would not have discontinued the P85 unless demand for it was insignificant.

You don't understand Tesla very well, I think. Tesla made a calculated decision to eliminate the P85 because it wanted to push all of those buyers into the even more expensive and higher margin P85D. The move worked out well for Tesla. Judging by the number of used P85s on the market, it was quite a popular configuration.

The P85D at around the same price range with the additional safety and performance of AWD made the P85 irrelevant overnight for most buyers with the exception of a few enthusiasts who might likes to go sideways

No, the price of the P85D is over $13,000 more than my P85. That's not "around the same price range", that's 15% more. The P85D made the P85 as irrelevant as the S85D made the S85 irrelevant, yet Tesla still offers the S85. Your hypothesis doesn't really make sense.

From a performance and safety standpoint AWD is the way to go for a high horsepower car for the vast majority of Tesla customers.

Not really. The vast majority of Tesla's customers are not looking for 600+ HP P85Ds. And as shown by the S85D, AWD is not exclusively for performance and high horsepower. The S85D is anemic when compared to the P85.

 

[tomas]

Gotta agree with Dirk and Amped this time... Dropping P85+ obvious. Dropping P85 a calculated decision... a bet that sales would not be lost, and more buyers would go UP $15k to P85D than would go DOWN to 85 or 85D.

Also, gotta agree with Todd, I think there's a performance niche there. The price niche is covered by the 85D, but the P85 rwd at same price holds more appeal for SOME buyers (geez, I hope nobody's gonna argue with THAT, as the posts on this thread make it pretty clear that a decent sample value it).

Tesla has hands full with X, 3, geographic expansion, etc., so I would not expect a new P85 anytime soon. More likely that a future something else will fill in that product line space. Maybe a coupe that comes in P85 and P85D variants? Or, a high end P3?