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Realist isn't happy

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Realist: Ok. The car isn't perfect for you so it doesn't work for anyone? I've driven just EVs in a very large state for over a year now without problems because it works within what I need. Now with Superchargers it really isn't an issue. Just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work for others. Not everyone likes to drive for 6 hours without a break. If I have to take two 20min breaks during a trip like that I'm fine. No one car is perfect for everyone. Farmers don't use a Prius for field work. Maybe someone who drives 6-8 hours with little to no breaks at 150 mph shouldn't get an EV. For the 99% of the population that doesn't drive like that at that speed, EVs are a valid option. You don't seem to get that.
 
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So, you drive an Evora...a lot, which is not the best touring car, as it has a sports car ride, 2cuft of cargo space and poor MPG (compared to other cars). Maybe you got a good deal on it? But that choice seems odd, do you regret it over whatever your 2nd choice was? Do you ever need to transport more cargo than you can take? Or wish that the ride wasn't so harsh/loud?

Driving the routes you drive are perfectly fine *with* supercharging and you have to know that is coming so saying that it is 'unacceptable' to charge (take a break) for 40 minutes on a 6 hour trip is un-realistic IMHO.

Also, what kind of bike do you have? I'm a biker so I'm curious in your bike decision as well.
 
Also, you are driving 125mph or so and getting 5 mpg at about $8/gallon just to save an hour. You risk in an accident goes way up at that speed but you save time. There are trade off just as driving 90mph and taking an hour break with free fuel would likely work as well for most.
 
To everyone, the specifics of Realists car don't matter.
What does matter to this subject is that Realist is projecting his needs/wants in a car to the entire car market.

Realist, please do not invest based upon your assumption that because the Model S doesn't fit your needs/wants it doesn't match anyone else's.
 
So, you drive an Evora...a lot, which is not the best touring car, as it has a sports car ride, 2cuft of cargo space and poor MPG (compared to other cars). Maybe you got a good deal on it? But that choice seems odd, do you regret it over whatever your 2nd choice was? Do you ever need to transport more cargo than you can take? Or wish that the ride wasn't so harsh/loud?

Actually the Evora is a very comfortable car. The ride is excellent, cargo space is enough, MPG is fine. In fact, the Evora is one of the most efficient sports cars you can buy, despite having a rather ordinary Toyota engine. The engineering in this car is truly sublime. I love it.

I see that most poeple don't get my point.

Normal cruising speeds of 160-200 kph are common in Germany.

If you go on the Autobahn in a car with 180 kph topspeed you will be overtaken frequently by faster cars. That is reality here.

If you try to maintain speeds above 160 kph in a Tesla the range will suffer dramatically. You have a 85 kwh battery weighting 500kg in this car. That is equal to only about 10l fuel (unleaded gas 95). Energy consumption increases much more when picking up speed in an electric than in a gasoline car since the electric drive is more efficient of course.

When I was testing the Roadster my range was at about 120 km, in the Model S it should be app. 150-200 km when driven hard. Even 160 kph cruising speed will be enough to see range coming down into the region of 200-250km.
So the question is, who pays 125.000 Euros for a car with such a pathetic high speed performance? More than 70% of all BMW M5s are sold with the optional speed package. That is removing the limiter at 250kph up to 305. Remember this guys don’t care about saving fuel, they want speed and they get it.

It’s a different story when you pay 35.000 euros for an electric city car like the BMW i3.

Now regarding Nigel’s question. What is the alternative to a Model S?

I believe first and foremost a car has to offer unlimited individual mobility. You get in and you can drive wherever you want. You cannot do that in a purely electric car. But in an urban environment this concept can make sense.
A large battery increases the energy consumption during the production process and it raises question on the durability of the battery pack. If you need 500kgs to store that tiny amount of energy it’s not the right way to go.
So the logical alternative is a hybrid. And if you use Natural Gas (CNG) or other renewables your CO2 footprint will be lower than in an electric car. There are many alternatives.

To me this is a viable path to go. I don’t want to live in a society where we still have to add nuclear power plants to the grid.
 
Actually the Evora is a very comfortable car. The ride is excellent, cargo space is enough, MPG is fine. In fact, the Evora is one of the most efficient sports cars you can buy, despite having a rather ordinary Toyota engine. The engineering in this car is truly sublime. I love it.

I see that most poeple don't get my point.

Normal cruising speeds of 160-200 kph are common in Germany.

If you go on the Autobahn in a car with 180 kph topspeed you will be overtaken frequently by faster cars. That is reality here.

If you try to maintain speeds above 160 kph in a Tesla the range will suffer dramatically. You have a 85 kwh battery weighting 500kg in this car. That is equal to only about 10l fuel (unleaded gas 95). Energy consumption increases much more when picking up speed in an electric than in a gasoline car since the electric drive is more efficient of course.

When I was testing the Roadster my range was at about 120 km, in the Model S it should be app. 150-200 km when driven hard. Even 160 kph cruising speed will be enough to see range coming down into the region of 200-250km.
So the question is, who pays 125.000 Euros for a car with such a pathetic high speed performance? More than 70% of all BMW M5s are sold with the optional speed package. That is removing the limiter at 250kph up to 305. Remember this guys don’t care about saving fuel, they want speed and they get it.

It’s a different story when you pay 35.000 euros for an electric city car like the BMW i3.

Now regarding Nigel’s question. What is the alternative to a Model S?

I believe first and foremost a car has to offer unlimited individual mobility. You get in and you can drive wherever you want. You cannot do that in a purely electric car. But in an urban environment this concept can make sense.
A large battery increases the energy consumption during the production process and it raises question on the durability of the battery pack. If you need 500kgs to store that tiny amount of energy it’s not the right way to go.
So the logical alternative is a hybrid. And if you use Natural Gas (CNG) or other renewables your CO2 footprint will be lower than in an electric car. There are many alternatives.

To me this is a viable path to go. I don’t want to live in a society where we still have to add nuclear power plants to the grid.

I think we all get your point, we just don't understand it. Buyers in Germany do not equal the rest of the world. If driving at 140mph at all times is your primary need then yes, buy an M5 but certainly not the i3 you seem to like. If CO2 footprint is important to you then don't buy the M5 and certainly don't drive everywhere at 140mph, slow down. Just because someone can overtake you on the autobahn if you drive 100mph in the right lane doesn't mean that is the worst thing in the world.

So you are concerned about a larger battery (that is easily recyclable) taking more energy but you drive a 'efficient' sports car at high speeds? If you truly cared about CO2 footprint then you'd pick a more efficient car like maybe the Model S. It is at least 3 times better at converting energy to motion than the Evora.

So you can use natural gas in a car but not in a power plant to make electricity for an electric car? How does that work?

Your argument seems to be everyone needs to drive 125mph for hours on end and it needs to have a low CO2 footprint which makes little sense. As you said, take a train if that was your major concern. Also, not all sections of the Autobahn (or even most I understand) are unlimited and the party may not last forever
Sacrilege! Could Germany's famous high-speed Autobahn roadways get a 75mph speed limit? | Digital Trends
 
This conversation is sounding a lot like the reverse of explaining cup holders to Germans. Let's call it a cultural difference and leave it at that :)

I believe the future will provide at least two things moving forward. First, the AB will continue to be restricted so enjoy that speed while you can. One day you will be limited to the North Loop of the NR. Second, MS is going on sale in Germany so we are going to get a real time test of the car's appeal to that market. We will all get our answer soon enough. Sure, it will not be used by the AB blaster guys but let's see if they buy it anyway :)

and of course, if you want to continue to short the stock based on history and not the future then by all means please feel free to do so.
 
I believe the future will provide at least two things moving forward. First, the AB will continue to be restricted so enjoy that speed while you can. One day you will be limited to the North Loop of the NR.

How do you know?

Apart from the green party nobody wants a speed limit here. In fact most people find it absurd to limit the Speed. Our Autobahns are the safest roads on the planet.

And regarding Cupholders. The Lotus doesn't have them. I don't miss them.

Usually, I have both hands on the wheel.
 
So after reading all of this it seems to distill down to - Realist says Model S is not the ideal car for the Autobahn (true) therefore the Model S will flop worldwide. Realist then tries to make up non-issues to support his dubious conclusion. Fine. Based on sales of M5 vs. Model S in the US, I think it is safe to say that Model S will not be a worldwide flop, if anything, BMW may need to make an actual competitor to Model S maintain brand image in the States. In Germany however, Model S may not sell as well. Ok. Argument over. Move along...
 
Having lived in Germany for many, many years of my life; I get a bit tired of hearing the myth about "no-speed-limit-autobahns". The truth is about 50% of the Autobahns have speed limits, much of the Autobahn system is two-lane and it's darn near impossible to drive over 130kmh (~89mph) due to the volume of traffic, the level of "Baustellen" (roadworks) necessary to maintain the Autobahns inevitably leads to plenty of "Staus" (jams) and, in my experience, most Germans will admit that even if they keep the number of accidents relatively low the proportion of fatalities is high due to idiots driving at excessive speeds for the road conditions. So when I read this...

Our Autobahns are the safest roads on the planet.

.....I have to call it for the BS that it is. Take a look at the IRTAD report for 2013 (covers calendar year 2011 and you'll see that there are plenty of other countries who have much safer roads than Germany.

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And before anyone jumps up and tries to make out that's "all roads", take a look at the stats for Motorways/Freeways/Autobahns only (latest figures are for 2010):

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...........and scene!

But WAIT! No one was motivated by Realists' CLEARLY superior arguments and now wishes to divest themselves of a MS?? My dreams have been crushed.

I also spent many years on the Autobahn and I'll vouch for both points made re: them. There are lots of places where you CAN drive as sustained high speeds but most of the time you CAN'T actually do it. Even when you COULD it only takes one person in the Luftwaffe lane to scrub off a lot of your speed so if you're above the prevailing flow it's incredibly inefficient with all the braking, accelerating, braking, etc. Since the trucks are speed limited everywhere there's pretty much always someone passing someone else in front of you. You could go like hell at night-- but that's just stupid.

The Autobahn is like a long lost girlfriend that broke up with you. She's better in memories than in real life where her problems are more evident.
I'll second the BS call on anyone suggesting pollution is a concern but cruising at high speeds isn't. I used to VISIBLY watch my gas needle move nearly as fast as the odometer and that was in a pretty average BMW, nothing outlandish.