Real World Range Questions (Winter)

[NigelM]

^^^ My conversations with Tesla convinced me that Model S A/C will be much more efficient. I see your point about the 240 mile trip from Miami to Orlando, but IMO the bigger issue for most people would holding down their speed on that freeway drive. Personally I'd be quite happy to attempt it with a range charge, and note that FL Turnpike have promised charge stations next year.

 

[dsm363]

I'm not a Roadster owner, but I think I've read that the A/C works totally differently than the Model S. And with the "range limit" getting lower and lower as I get closer to delivery, it's something I'm worried about. IMO, it's just passed below my Miami-Orlando comfort limit.

I think the range is right around where people were expecting it to be from the range vs. speed graph Tesla released previously. Tesla probably shouldn't have pushed the 300 miles at 55 mph range because while that's possible, it's unlikely to be something most people due since highway speeds are normally 65 mph and people tend to use their AC or heat.

 

[NigelM]

I think the range is right around where people were expecting it to be from the range vs. speed graph Tesla released previously. Tesla probably shouldn't have pushed the 300 miles at 55 mph range because while that's possible, it's unlikely to be something most people due since highway speeds are normally 65 mph and people tend to use their AC or heat.

Dave, with Roadster owner experience living in a warm climate would you worry abut a 240 mile drive in Model S 85kWh? I don't think I would worry, but I'm interested in others views.

 

[donauker]

With 46,000 miles on our Roadster in my experience the AC has a much smaller impact then cold temperatures with heater use. The real factor is speed, you can offset the AC loss with just a few mph of speed decrease.

The big factor that most non pilots will either ignore or vastly underestimate is wind! Most people will never even give a light breeze of 10 mph a second thought, but the Model S certainly will be affected. If you happened to be heading into that slight breeze with your speed carefully set at 65 you would be expecting a range of around 260 miles based on the chart posted by Tesla. Unfortunately as far as the car is concerned you are actually moving at 75 mph into that headwind so your actual range will be much closer to 220 miles. Up that breeze just slightly to 15 mph and your range drops to more like 200 miles!

 

[ckessel]

I confess that I was a little disappointed in the EPA and Motor Trend numbers. I had hoped that the 300 was going to be the equivalent of the EPA number, and that careful driving would allow exceeding it, while inattentive driving would yield more like 265.

I hadn't responded because I wasn't sure how to put it, but Mike nailed my feelings as well. I've got a 240-250 mile round trip I do regularly and I thought I'd fairly easily handle that without needing to change in the middle. That's now seems unlikely.

 

[Jaff]

Agreed Nigel...we've had a blasted hot, dry summer up here...I often drive with the top off and the a\c on...negligible range reduction at best...doesn't worry me a bit.

FWIW, I've had my A/C on 100% this entire summer and the impact on my Roadster range could be classified as a little more than marginal. It certainly hasn't bothered or worried me one bit. If I was driving close to the range limit I would have been concerned, but like most EV owners I try not to do that.

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This is true Dave, but I think everyone needs to look at the big picture...do you want to drive a gasser &live with it's associated costs & headaches, or would you rather slow down to 55 mph, get to your destination a few minutes later, but enjoy the peace of mind of EV driving? ...it is a bit of a lifestyle change (minor), but more than a fair trade off (lower speed on drives where range is required vs arriving faster in a gasser)...a no-brainer imo...

I think the range is right around where people were expecting it to be from the range vs. speed graph Tesla released previously. Tesla probably shouldn't have pushed the 300 miles at 55 mph range because while that's possible, it's unlikely to be something most people due since highway speeds are normally 65 mph and people tend to use their AC or heat.

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Well said donauker!

Speed, wind, and elevation change are all very important when trying to maximise your range...speed is the only factor of these three that is under your control so if you are running low on electrons, just slow down...

With 46,000 miles on our Roadster in my experience the AC has a much smaller impact then cold temperatures with heater use. The real factor is speed, you can offset the AC loss with just a few mph of speed decrease.

The big factor that most non pilots will either ignore or vastly underestimate is wind! Most people will never even give a light breeze of 10 mph a second thought, but the Model S certainly will be affected. If you happened to be heading into that slight breeze with your speed carefully set at 65 you would be expecting a range of around 260 miles based on the chart posted by Tesla. Unfortunately as far as the car is concerned you are actually moving at 75 mph into that headwind so your actual range will be much closer to 220 miles. Up that breeze just slightly to 15 mph and your range drops to more like 200 miles!

 

[MikeK]

The big factor that most non pilots will either ignore or vastly underestimate is wind! Most people will never even give a light breeze of 10 mph a second thought, but the Model S certainly will be affected.

Where could we put a pitot tube?

 

[Arnold Panz]

Interesting points on the effect of wind on range. Generally, the wind in Florida blows from southeast, so driving north and west gets me better mileage than other directions. I see an appreciable difference in my gas mileage in my current car.

So, it's possible that for a 240 mile trip from Miami to Orlando you could make it to Orlando pretty easily but have a harder time making it back to Miami without slowing down, shutting off the A/C or hitting a charging station along the way.

 

[dsm363]

Dave, with Roadster owner experience living in a warm climate would you worry abut a 240 mile drive in Model S 85kWh? I don't think I would worry, but I'm interested in others views.

If I was going to drive normally (speed limit is 75 mph in places here) with AC I probably would worry. More than likely I'd just slow down a little and maybe stop at an RV park for an hour if I thought I was cutting it close. Both 200 mile trips I've made without stopping were much more fun when I stopped to charge for an hour on the way back.

 

[Trnsl8r]

What do you guys think have a bigger effect on range? Running the AC or cracking some windows?

 

[rolosrevenge]

There are charging stations in Orlando, I assume that your not just driving there to turn around and head back. Even a few hours on a 120 V outlet could give you plenty of breathing room. I'd rather look to see where you can get some charging infrastructure set up.

 

[Arnold Panz]

There are charging stations in Orlando, I assume that your not just driving there to turn around and head back. Even a few hours on a 120 V outlet could give you plenty of breathing room. I'd rather look to see where you can get some charging infrastructure set up.

Sorry for the confusion -- I was responding to Aviator's concern about the Miami/Orlando route. It's about 240 miles between the two cities, and given the discussion on what reduces range (speed, A/C, wind etc.), it seems like it's going to be a fairly close call getting to/from Orlando and Miami for those doing that trip. Of course, anyone going to Orlando would have to completely recharge before heading back down to Miami. The issue is that given the general wind direction, it's very possible that a person driving a reasonable speed (65 or 70 mph) could make it to Orlando without a problem but need a mid-trip recharge on the way from Orlando to Miami because they'll likely be going into a headwind. People's real life eperiences will help sort this out, although hopefully the presence of charges along the route(s) will alleviate these types of concerns.

 

[Kipernicus]

These conversations about either (a) slowing down or (b) stopping to charge (and what if the charger is in use?) are why my wife is still not with me on the Model S. Especially when we are talking about $80k+. It's really hard to accept such compromises when our weekend and vacation time is limited and we have schedules to keep.

It's also very hard to change the human desire to speed:

 

[Jaff]

I think a lot of it may depend on your driving lifestyle / route environment / range of your daily use...I think those of us who are more at ease with this issue don't come near to the daily range limit (of a standard charge) in our everyday use...I feel that I only comprimise (drive slower) in maybe 5% of my normal daily usage (on the days when I need to preserve range)...the remaining 95% of my driving is "on my terms" :wink::smile:

More than a fair trade off imo...:smile:

In a perfect world Kipernicus, you'd be able to rent a Model S for a week or two to judge for yourself whether or not the Model S works for you...when a sufficient number of Model S's are built, and sufficient off premesis charging infrastructure is enabled, this might be a feature for all EV manufacturers to employ over the short term.

 

[Grendal]

Sammy Hagar brilliance aside, I think the Model S has plenty of distance for what you need if the Roadster is any indication. The EPA number of 265 is a good touchstone to work with. The MT guys, while exhibiting range anxiety, gave Elon's car a run for it's money. They had just before the trip put it through all the tests which is equivalent to running it on a track and abusing it. Some of that "fun" had to spill over onto the long distance trip and to lose 25 miles of range in the conditions they described makes perfect sense.

I wouldn't be worried. It's going to be a car you get used to and will learn to work with to get what you need from it. You don't hear too much about range anxiety from the experienced Roadster owners.

 

[aviators99]

There are a bunch of replies here that say at 55mph I should have no problem going 240 miles with A/C. In actuality, I have no problem slowing down to that speed. I'm not convinced it will work, though. I'm looking at the graph, and the MT guys seem to be well under the curve, even with the A/C off.

 

[dsm363]

There are a bunch of replies here that say at 55mph I should have no problem going 240 miles with A/C. In actuality, I have no problem slowing down to that speed. I'm not convinced it will work, though. I'm looking at the graph, and the MT guys seem to be well under the curve, even with the A/C off.

Are there any RV parks or chargers along that route that you could stop at for 45 min or an hour if you thought you were in trouble? I still think you'll be ok but it could be within 15 miles of empty and I normally want more of a buffer than that.

 

[aviators99]

Are there any RV parks or chargers along that route that you could stop at for 45 min or an hour if you thought you were in trouble? I still think you'll be ok but it could be within 15 miles of empty and I normally want more of a buffer than that.

I'm sure there are. But with the wife and two kids in the car, it really doesn't fit the mission profile for this trip.

 

[dsm363]

I'm sure there are. But with the wife and two kids in the car, it really doesn't fit the mission profile for this trip.

4 1/2 hours in the car is a long time. Maybe a 30 min stop here or there would work to get you an additional 15 miles of range but I understand probably not possible. Hopefully a Supercharger will be along your route or that you'll find you're able to make it there on a single charge after all.

 

[ChadS]

These conversations about either (a) slowing down or (b) stopping to charge (and what if the charger is in use?) are why my wife is still not with me on the Model S. Especially when we are talking about $80k+. It's really hard to accept such compromises when our weekend and vacation time is limited and we have schedules to keep.

I've taken a Roadster on many long trips. I don't slow down. It's true that I would have to if I was going on a 245-mile trip without stopping. But the chargers are no more than 150 miles apart, so there's no need. I can go as fast as I want. The key is, I don't plan 245-mile trips with no charging.

Not to mention the road trips are typically only once a year or so. 360 days out of the year, I'm just driving around town, and I'm not going to go anywhere near 200 miles. I don't even look at the battery gauge. Seriously, I have way more range anxiety in a gas car because it's not full every morning, so I have to check the gas level. The only time I watch the battery meter is on that once-a-year road trip. I could slow down for that road trip if I really had to; but I don't plan my trips that close (with gas or electric) because there's too much that can go wrong.

The reason slowing down gets brought up is that some people are hoping to take a "300-mile" nominal-range car on a trip close to 300 miles without charging. That's not the right kind of trip for the car. It's like buying a gas car with an advertised 30mpg and a 10-gallon gas tank on a 300-mile trip without refueling. Sure, it can be done...but there are so many factors that affect mpg, would you really try? If there are no gas stations along the route (or you just don't want to use them), then my claim is that is not the right car for the trip. Just like a Miata is not the right car to take the kids on vacation; it doesn't have enough seats. That doesn't make it a bad car; just the wrong car for that trip. Buy a different car (or at least have another one available; that's what most Miata drivers do) if you need to go near the edge of its range quickly without stopping in any weather.

(To complicate things slightly: I'm addressing people thinking about buying a car, and considering their driving. If you will regularly stretch the range, the car is not for you. Seriously, don't buy it; there are plenty of people that won't regularly stretch the range that will be happier with it. Of course, for those of you that do buy the car, even if you have a gas car available for a long trip, you won't want to take it. So then you might find yourself plotting how to make it work for a range-stretching trip. But that's not something you have to do, it's something you want to do. It will be far easier to plan once you've had the car for a while and have a better feel for its capabilities under your own driving, terrain and weather conditions).