Range anxiety after almost 5 yrs??

[Shock-On-T]

I've owned my Model S since March 2013. P85+ with 135K miles. The range estimates have always been accurate, and I've driven into my garage to charge with 1 or 2 miles showing on the display many times. Any range anxiety dissipated after a few weeks of ownership... UNTIL last Friday.

I was returning home, driving 65 mph on the highway. Home was 8.9 miles away. Range display showed 20 miles remaining. My model S seemed to be operating normally. The yellow dashed line indicators showing the max available kwh had appeared. Normal, since it was cold outside and the battery was getting low. Without any other warning the display flashed "pull over", "car shutting down". After coming to a stop, 3 hazard display warning would cycle. "Battery Power Too Low - Charge Battery", "12V Power Low - Car May Shut Down Unexpectedly" and cabin overheat protect disabled. After about 25 minutes all of the screens powered down.

I called the Telsa Service Center in my area and spoke to a service guy. He told me to call Tesla roadside assistance and gave me their phone number. This was the first time I've needed roadside assistance with my Model S and the first time I've ever called Telsa Roadside Assistance. I explained my situation. The woman told me that she was looking at the cars information and verified that (1) the battery was exhausted and (2) the range indicator did indeed show 19 miles remaining.
She told me that my car was out of warranty but maybe they could extend a one time courtesy tow. She needed to speak with her supervisor. When she returned, the answer was NO. They would however arrange a tow if I'd pay for the service but couldn't quote a price. AAA was my next call.

The next several hours waiting were spent watching youtube videos. I learned how to remove the nosecone to access the 12V battery terminals. How to release the parking break. Towing procedures etc. 5hrs later my Model S was in my driveway. The car wouldn't connect to my High Speed Wall Charger until the 12V battery had been on the trickle charger for an hour or so. Couple hours later, the car was fully charged and everything was back to business as usual.

EXCEPT now I don't trust the range indicator. It's like I have a broken fuel gauge in an ICE vehicle but the miles per tank of gas varies. Is 20 miles my new 0 miles?

Has anyone experienced this? Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

That's why I've always felt that miles (or kms in my case) is not the best way to view the battery status.
It's just too far removed from reality.
I prefer percentage. If my phone shows 3% I don't get surprised if it suddenly shuts down. Same with my car.
You gotta keep that sucker charged!

 

[DaveFite]

Thanks for all the replies!

@ChadS

I am curious about the 12V error. If the HV battery died (for whatever reason) and you used 12V systems for an hour or two, you would expect that error. But it displayed the 12V error as soon as the car stopped, is that correct?

I don't recall when the 12V warning started displaying. It was displaying when I was on the phone to the Tesla Service Center which was less than 10 minutes after the car shutdown.

@roblab

What's wrong with managing your trip so you arrive with more spare battery? What's wrong with slowing down, or watching your battery usage, especially in the cold and mountains and headwinds? I can't understand why you still trust your range indicator, since most of us know it's a guess-ti-mator.

I believe I was managing my trip. I started the day with 193 miles showing. After almost 5 years with the car, I understand how temperature, driving habits, climate controls, heated seats, inclines and headwinds affect range. I had traveled 125 miles and the range suggested I still had 19 miles in the battery. Regardless whether the estimate was set to 'miles' or 'percentage', the indicator suggested the battery was NOT empty and the car should still function. If you consider your range indicator a "guess-ti-mator", what's your actual zero? 10%? 20%? 50%?

@Tam

Nothing is wrong with distrusting the battery gauge as long as we are educated that we should not trust the battery meter and we should know that 19 miles on the battery gauge means 0 miles.

I agree!

@David29

I agree. Since the OP is apparently a new member, he may not be the type who spends a lot of time on Tesla forums and thus has not acquired all of the "folklore" that surrounds these cars (such as the comment above about balancing the cells, about which Tesla says absolutely nothing in the owner's manual). And regardless of the OP's experience in his nearly 5 years of ownership, Tesla's customers should certainly be able to trust the car to more accurately portray its ability to get them and their family safely home on a cold winter night (and it was indeed very cold last Friday, if memory serves).

I do wonder what the energy application was showing as projected range at the time the car shut down, though. Possibly the use of the energy app together with the navigation would have been a prudent way to track the remaining range, especially if there were any significant elevation change along the route.

I am a new member and have not followed the forums since waiting for my Model S to go into production. My trust of the range indicator was built over the years of using it. It has never failed to overestimate the charge remaining. I have returned to my home many times with less than 5 miles showing. I have never run it down to 0. I use the navigation system but honestly find it lacking compared to applications of my phone which I trust more. I'm NOT familiar with "the energy application" you're referring to. Pointer?

@tnt1971

Curious what the ambient temperature was.

I can tell you, based on waiting 4 hours for the tow truck without a functioning vehicle, it was 7 degrees Fahrenheit.

@Electricfan

I'm very interested to know if 19 is your new zero, or if your 12V fails and needs replacement. Have you ever had the 12V battery replaced?

I believe that is the basis of my renewed range anxiety. Is 19 the new 0? Yes, the 12V battery has been replaced several times. The most recent was last September, about 6k miles ago.

@Naonak

This highlights the problem of displaying range in any vehicle. Tesla would disable and not allow any mile range gauges in the car without a complicated procedure to activate it. It should DEFAULT to percentage and be difficult to change. No other electrical device really tells you how many minutes of charge you have remaining. They all give a percentage. Your phone doesn't say "10 minutes of charge remaining," it says "15% battery remaining." The car is no different.

The first thing I do when I get in an EV is change it to display the percentage. Displaying miles is just folly and should not be allowed for new people to an EV, it should be an explicit setting that someone has to work to enable.

While I understand your point of view, I fail to see the difference in displaying miles or percentage. The miles display is just a conversion using an assumption of the energy required per mile. (300Wh per mile?) How about the percentage display? Is that the based on the theoretical battery capacity? Maybe the initial delivery date capacity? Last fully charged capacity? Isn't the rate of change of the value on the display the important data for the operator?

Just out of curiosity, question for the people who prefer a percentage display. You start the day with 42% and you want to make a round trip of 50 miles. How do you decide if you will need to charge during the trip? I assume you must know the battery capacity, 60kWh or 85kWh or maybe 100kWh? Do you then take your unique driving pattern into account? During the summer I average 280Wh/Mile, 350Wh/Mile in the winter. Will I be using the heat/AC today? The terrain might be a big factor. I'm guessing you've built up knowledge base over time and make an assessment. If during your trip the percentage drops faster than you anticipated you take appropriate action. BUT you have to trust the value displayed. The battery can't be empty when 19% is displayed!

 

[roblab]

Many good comments here. I wish Tesla could either teach drivers, or fix things.

I have mentioned that I have a friend who routinely drives his 85 down to near zero. Or past it. He claims he has 13 to 16 miles after he gets to zero. The car does not shut down -- very often. When it does, he gets a tow to the charger and fills it. I couldn't live like that.

The last time that I knew of, he was a half mile from his home charger. He waited several hours for the tow to come, and I drove by and saw him, visited a bit. Couldn't help.

 

[PeterHG]

This highlights the problem of displaying range in any vehicle. Tesla would disable and not allow any mile range gauges in the car without a complicated procedure to activate it. It should DEFAULT to percentage and be difficult to change. No other electrical device really tells you how many minutes of charge you have remaining. They all give a percentage. Your phone doesn't say "10 minutes of charge remaining," it says "15% battery remaining." The car is no different.

The first thing I do when I get in an EV is change it to display the percentage. Displaying miles is just folly and should not be allowed for new people to an EV, it should be an explicit setting that someone has to work to enable.

You need to help me with this one--your position seems completely irrational. If a person displays %, and has even a modicum of arithmetic ability, he immediately translates the percentage into miles and compares that to the distance remaining. Actually, without being able to do this, the percentage is meaningless/useless.

 

[Johann Koeber]

Something similar happened to me: How often do Tesla owners run out of charge?

 

[kavyboy]

You need to help me with this one--your position seems completely irrational. If a person displays %, and has even a modicum of arithmetic ability, he immediately translates the percentage into miles and compares that to the distance remaining. Actually, without being able to do this, the percentage is meaningless/useless.

I completely agree. I don't "get" why percentage is better than miles, even if miles is approximate. For example, let's say I have 30% left and I need to go 70 miles. Am I cutting it close? That answer is entirely different in an S100D versus an X60. Now I have to start doing math in my head, factoring in battery size and latest and normal consumption. *Or*, I can put it on rated miles, see that I have 80 left add a fudge factor if consumption seems higher than normal, and I have my answer instantly and easily: "Yes, but I should keep an eye on it."

Whatever works for you, fine, but boy I just don't get the preference for percentage. I guess maybe it's because my rated miles always match actual miles almost exactly, and that's not the case for other people.

 

[TLej]

Just out of curiosity, question for the people who prefer a percentage display. You start the day with 42% and you want to make a round trip of 50 miles. How do you decide if you will need to charge during the trip? I assume you must know the battery capacity, 60kWh or 85kWh or maybe 100kWh? Do you then take your unique driving pattern into account? During the summer I average 280Wh/Mile, 350Wh/Mile in the winter. Will I be using the heat/AC today? The terrain might be a big factor. I'm guessing you've built up knowledge base over time and make an assessment. If during your trip the percentage drops faster than you anticipated you take appropriate action. BUT you have to trust the value displayed. The battery can't be empty when 19% is displayed!

Can't speak to how others do it, but for short trips I don't worry about what the indicator shows. For a highway trip, I look to see what my actual useage is and do some math. For example, if I start with 85% charge, and after 30 km I'm down to 70%, then I can extrapolate that I'm getting about 2 km for each 1% of battery, and given that I have 70% remaining I should be good for another 140 km. I'll do that calculation a couple of times during the trip to see if it's staying constant, and base my charging decision accordingly. It does depend on the battery indicator being accurate (i.e. 10% use is actually 10% use), but it also automatically factors in current actual power useage (heating, headwind, snow/rain drag, etc.) and has always been pretty reliable. I kind of also base my estimates on what I think my actual battery holds. At my rated 180 Wh/km, with a 90 kWh battery, I assume I should get about 5.5 km/kWh, or roughly 440km on a 100% charge assuming my "90" is more like 80 actual useable kWh (I'm a conservative fellow). When I'm using 350 Wh/km as I have been recently in the cold, I expect my range is about half that number. In the summer I've seen numbers around 150 Wh/km, so I know I should be able to get a little more range out of it.

In my opinion, rated miles are great if you live somewhere temperate, but with large variations in climate and with temperature having such a large effect on battery efficiency, they're not a reliable year-round indicator. The math I do above works no matter what the weather.

The bottom line is that yes, you need to be able to trust the display, whether percentage or distance. I was just curious if the battery display was telling you 19 miles remaining but the percentage would have shown you 1% or some other warning factor. If the battery percentage was still telling you 8% when you ran out, then it wouldn't have mattered no matter how you choose to display remaining energy.

 

[sandpiper]

5 years driving Tesla here, too. But I don't recall much range anxiety, except once, when I had six miles of range left and 6 miles to the nearest charger. I learned my lesson. I don't drive it down to the bone any more. I usually arrive with 30 miles left or more.

What's wrong with managing your trip so you arrive with more spare battery? What's wrong with slowing down, or watching your battery usage, especially in the cold and mountains and headwinds? I can't understand why you still trust your range indicator, since most of us know it's a guess-ti-mator. When I drive a long leg, I make sure I have extra battery, and I don't try to do eighty up hill. Ah, but that's just me.

Nothing is wrong with it. Except that in very cold winter conditions, you've got fewer options . Slowing down doesn't always improve range much if you need the defrost to keep the windshield clear. Add some intermittent snowy roads, snow plows or other factors to the mix, and you can have an unsolvable problem.

I had one leg, over the holidays, where I ran it down to 6km of range to get to a SC, while at -24C. It wasn't my plan to do so. As I left the prior SC, I expected to arrive with over 50km left. To have the car die with 19 miles / 30 km of range left is not reasonable - any more than it is for an ICE to run dry showing 1/8 tank.

 

[CUBldr97]

@DaveFite did you happen to update to 50.2 recently? I have a 2013 MS85 with 65k miles I am wondering if its a coincidence. my 2013 Model S upgraded to 50.2 on Dec 26th, and on Thursday I got a warning about "car may not start" "needs service" etc... an hour later it went into a diagnostic routine when i got back in the car, said "car will not start" call service... however it did actually start... i drove home not warnings, and on Friday I was able to start it twice and drive it to the service department... I have not heard from service yet as to what is wrong.... While many will say its the 12v, i have a brand new 12v battery replaced a month ago by TESLA (under warranty for free)

It seems that in the last week, there have been 50 plus incidents of 12v failures or other related shutdowns in all the forums i follow... I am wondering if there is a bug in the newest software update(s). I was on .42 last week.

 

[Rocky_H]

I suppose you might call this a moderate position. In the threads about whether 0 really means 0, I do caution people to not ever trust that there is some hidden driving reserve below 0, and that I even think it's reasonable that a positive 1 or 2 miles showing is still nearly 0 and I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if it lowered power and went into shutdown around that point.

But there is a level along this curve that is not OK. 19 rated miles is approximately 6kWh that is still supposed to be there. That is an awful lot to be off, and I would not consider that "near 0" or an acceptable point to shut down.

 

[Chopr147]

I can tell you... Tesla navigation isn't programmed (or badly programmed) to estimate properly at cold temperatures. It's doing fine at normal temperatures though. I learned it the hard way.

Agree here. Though Tesla claims temp is factored in I have learned it is way off.
On a 20 degree day my 150 mile trip may estimate 25% once I arrive. But actual conditions will be more like 8%. I'm talking cold but no rain,snow etc..... These are just some of the lessons Tesla owners need to learn. Interested in seeing Model 3 owners (new to Tesla) in future TMC complaints about range

 

[Electric700]

...
So I would say that the OP's BMS is out of wack. I would bring it back to 100% in order to re-calibrate the BMS ASAP !

Good point. DaveFite, you just need to charge to 100% and leave it there for about a half hour after your car is fully charged. Then, drive it so your car doesn't stay at the higher charge level. Some owners do this once a year to ensure their batteries are balanced, but I think Tesla should automatically have the software do this at lower levels (e.g. 50% - 99%). Either that, or they should have the cars present a message to owners requesting a once yearly charge to 100%.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Tam]

...should DEFAULT to percentage...

I don't think showing percentage helps. I agree that the problem is the inaccuracy of the meter and you explained it as "range" for any vehicle.

In this case, 19 miles is inaccurate.

If you switch 19 miles to percentage, it would say 7% which is no where near the accuracy of actual stalled car at 0%.

The car still dies regardless of whether you want to default the display as 7% or 19 miles in this case.

I think it's better to learn why there are inconsistencies in Tesla battery gauge.

Could be it be drifting algorithm as the car ages?

Could it be cold weather?

Could it be 12V battery?

Could it be some other factors...?

 

[Rocky_H]

Agree here. Though Tesla claims temp is factored in I have learned it is way off.

Be careful with that phrasing, please. Tesla as a company has never officially made that claim. Salespeople who work at Tesla stores it seems don't know the products all that well and make mistaken and uninformed claims frequently, though, so that might have been where you heard it.

 

[hacer]

Did you try to see if the car would drive AFTER recharging the 12V battery, but before charging the HV battery? It might primarily be an issue with the 12V system.

 

[fcharland]

I don't think it is cold weather. My car went -25c, and did not act like this, even at 0%

 

[Duke-U]

I also think the 12 volt battery failed. This is an AGM gel battery, and I had one fail in our ICE car with start-stop system. All worked fine till after one stop it just didnt want to start. These batteries have a sudden death when plates touch and the voltage drops. In your case the High Voltage Contactors would immediately disengage, explaining the sudden stop of the car’s power. Also the fact that all 12V systems stopped working after just 20 mins, the big loads were already stopped and the other systems drained the last juice out of it. Age doesn’t really matter, I had ours fail at just a couple of months.

 

[TexasEV]

Good point. DaveFite, you just need to charge to 100% and leave it there for about a half hour after your car is fully charged. Then, drive it so your car doesn't stay at the higher charge level. Some owners do this once a year to ensure their batteries are balanced, but I think Tesla should automatically have the software do this at lower levels (e.g. 50% - 99%)

It does. Jason has documented this well (and perhaps others). Balancing starts at 93% (I think, I may be off by a percent one way or the other) and it does not need to be left at this charge, it continues even as the car drives and the charge level drops. You don't have to do anything-- let the battery management system manage the battery.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Thanks for all the replies!

@ChadS
I don't recall when the 12V warning started displaying. It was displaying when I was on the phone to the Tesla Service Center which was less than 10 minutes after the car shutdown.

@roblab
I believe I was managing my trip. I started the day with 193 miles showing. After almost 5 years with the car, I understand how temperature, driving habits, climate controls, heated seats, inclines and headwinds affect range. I had traveled 125 miles and the range suggested I still had 19 miles in the battery. Regardless whether the estimate was set to 'miles' or 'percentage', the indicator suggested the battery was NOT empty and the car should still function. If you consider your range indicator a "guess-ti-mator", what's your actual zero? 10%? 20%? 50%?

@Tam
I agree!

@David29
I am a new member and have not followed the forums since waiting for my Model S to go into production. My trust of the range indicator was built over the years of using it. It has never failed to overestimate the charge remaining. I have returned to my home many times with less than 5 miles showing. I have never run it down to 0. I use the navigation system but honestly find it lacking compared to applications of my phone which I trust more. I'm NOT familiar with "the energy application" you're referring to. Pointer?

@tnt1971
I can tell you, based on waiting 4 hours for the tow truck without a functioning vehicle, it was 7 degrees Fahrenheit.

@Electricfan

I believe that is the basis of my renewed range anxiety. Is 19 the new 0? Yes, the 12V battery has been replaced several times. The most recent was last September, about 6k miles ago.

@Naonak

While I understand your point of view, I fail to see the difference in displaying miles or percentage. The miles display is just a conversion using an assumption of the energy required per mile. (300Wh per mile?) How about the percentage display? Is that the based on the theoretical battery capacity? Maybe the initial delivery date capacity? Last fully charged capacity? Isn't the rate of change of the value on the display the important data for the operator?

Just out of curiosity, question for the people who prefer a percentage display. You start the day with 42% and you want to make a round trip of 50 miles. How do you decide if you will need to charge during the trip? I assume you must know the battery capacity, 60kWh or 85kWh or maybe 100kWh? Do you then take your unique driving pattern into account? During the summer I average 280Wh/Mile, 350Wh/Mile in the winter. Will I be using the heat/AC today? The terrain might be a big factor. I'm guessing you've built up knowledge base over time and make an assessment. If during your trip the percentage drops faster than you anticipated you take appropriate action. BUT you have to trust the value displayed. The battery can't be empty when 19% is displayed!

I use the car’s Nav and plan the trip. It will tell you estimated charge and arrival, plus estimated charge returning to current location.
I never really know the exact distance to places, so find this easier.
You’re right about there being no real difference between “miles” and percent, but I find there’s a psychological difference. I respect and fear a low percentage in a way I don’t with a low mileage.

 

[PeterHG]

Can't speak to how others do it, but for short trips I don't worry about what the indicator shows. For a highway trip, I look to see what my actual useage is and do some math. For example, if I start with 85% charge, and after 30 km I'm down to 70%, then I can extrapolate that I'm getting about 2 km for each 1% of battery, and given that I have 70% remaining I should be good for another 140 km. I'll do that calculation a couple of times during the trip to see if it's staying constant, and base my charging decision accordingly. It does depend on the battery indicator being accurate (i.e. 10% use is actually 10% use), but it also automatically factors in current actual power useage (heating, headwind, snow/rain drag, etc.) and has always been pretty reliable. I kind of also base my estimates on what I think my actual battery holds. At my rated 180 Wh/km, with a 90 kWh battery, I assume I should get about 5.5 km/kWh, or roughly 440km on a 100% charge assuming my "90" is more like 80 actual useable kWh (I'm a conservative fellow). When I'm using 350 Wh/km as I have been recently in the cold, I expect my range is about half that number. In the summer I've seen numbers around 150 Wh/km, so I know I should be able to get a little more range out of it.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but if you use nav, your trip computer will do something very similar, I think actually a bit better, automatically: set destination and then display the computer below the map screen. At the start of the trip it will tell you how much battery you should expect to have at the end of the trip, then the percentage will move up or down as you drive. If the percentage climbs or holds steady, you're good! If she falls, be careful.