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Q3 Earnings Call: Questions about FSD
- Thread starter diplomat33
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I am being serious. I thought the "yes" quote is what we were talking about. That's the part in Autonomy Investor Day where Elon responds to "L5 no geofence". I forgot the other quote. Refresh my memory please.
I have no idea where you got that approximation of the quote that completely skips the important part: the timeline.
As we’ve so many times discussed Elon had just mentioned the feature complete timeline as end of 2019 — hence the question.
Who is changing the question Elon answered to because this is totally fraudulent:
Fake:
Real:
Somebody somewhere trying to get Elon off the hook?
Fake:
Real:
Elon Musk: "Yes."
Somebody somewhere trying to get Elon off the hook?
No, I went back to the video and transcribed it by hand. Honest mistake. I am not trying get Elon off the hook.
I know the timeline that says "L5 feature complete no geofence" by end of this year. Yes, Elon claims that Tesla will deliver "L5 feature complete no geofence" by end of this year. And if you accepted Elon's definition of "L5 feature complete no geofence", it would probably make more sense to you. Obviously, you don't accept his definition of "L5 feature complete no geofence" so the timeline does not make sense to you.
@diplomat33 The problem with ”accepting” this ”Elon’s definition” (as you defined them) is that both Level 5 and feature complete have well-defined meanings in this context (autonomous vehicles and software).
I would have to accept a lie.
I would have to accept a lie.
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Nobody forgets it. But Elon is not saying AP2 is L5 in that video, he is saying that the hardware is capable of achieving L5.
The context was @DanCar ’s message. Obviously SAE levels were discussed both at AP2 launch and Autonomy Investor Day.
I agree that L5 and Feature Complete are well defined terms. But whether you accept it as a "lie" or not, won't change the features that we get. At the end of this year or whenever they come out, Tesla will still deliver the set of features that they have planned, dubbed "L5 feature complete no geofence".
I agree they will.
But I could never sleep at night accepting this...
If you can, I guess... good (?) for you.
S100D
Member
I agree, Elon consistently projects dates and then pushes them out.
Recently he said that FSD would be feature complete by the end of 2019. Later he said that FSD should be sent to EAP testers by the end of this year. If the FSD firmware is not on my Model S by the end of this year, he missed the date once again.
I guess I am trying to set honest expectations for myself of what "L5 feature complete no geofence" is, based on all the information Tesla has put out. I am just trying to go with what I think Tesla is promising us. If Tesla has said that "L5 feature complete no geofence" by the end of this year is X, then I should expect X by the end of this year, not Y. If I expect Y when Tesla has not promised Y, then I am going to be disappointed and upset.
Specifically, I am expecting "L5 feature complete no geofence" to be very similar to what we saw in the Autonomy Investor Day FSD demo with driver supervision. I think it makes sense to accept what Tesla has shown us "L5 feature complete no geofence" to be.
But I appreciate your helpful posts. If I am understanding your position correctly, you are saying that it does not matter if Tesla might be saying "L5 feature complete no geofence" is X, because "L5 feature complete no geofence" really means Y so Tesla should deliver Y. Again, you might be right but then don't be surprised when Tesla delivers X.
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
Really ? What is the well-defined meaning of feature complete (I this context) ?
"Lie" also has a meaning. Its not what you think it means … I think.
The context was Tesla’s robotaxi software (since the hardware has been there all this time) and for software the definition is:
”A version of a piece of software having all the functionality intended for the final version but requiring some improvements and fixes before release.”
Elon answered at Autonomy Investor Day that Tesla is expecting to be SAE* ”Level 5 no geofence feature complete” at end of 2019. If instead they expected to be only ”minimum viable product feature complete for a Level 2 NoA”, that would have been a lie given those two expectations are vastly different, unless Elon didn’t know which would not be believable (nor excusable) and any case would have warranted a retraction later which has not happened.
* It also can’t mean anything other than SAE Level 5 because the ”level 5” part came from the question asker and Elon answered affirmatively. It is not believable the question meant ”some other Level 5” than SAE Level 5 at an autonomy event, nor is it believable Elon would have misunderstood.
You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting my position still.
My expectations for what Tesla is doing or will do have got nothing to do with this. I am merely commenting here on what Tesla has said those expectations should be. So if (again I am not saying I do at all) we take Tesla at their word on Autonomy Investor Day, we are to expect they are SAE Level 5 no geofence feature complete at end of 2019 internally because that is what they answered Yes to and have not retracted.
My second point — again nothing to do with my own expectations — is that IF they did not tell the truth when they said that, but instead they were expecting to be — say — minimum viable product feature complete for a Level 2 urban NoA, I would not find that chain of events acceptable/moral/ethical/honest what have you given the disparity between a Level 5 no geofence feature set and a Level 2 urban NoA MVP feature set. Vast disparity.
Again NOTHING to do with what I expect from Tesla. I will not be surprised by an alternative outcome at all. I am just commenting on 1) what they have claimed in public and 2) what I would find an unethcial breech of that.
Listening to Autonomy Day again, Elon Musk comments a bit more on "feature complete" at 3:34:19:
"Yeah, there are a lot of edge cases in Manhattan and downtown San Francisco, and there are various cities around the world that have challenging urban environments, but we do not expect this to be a significant issue. When I say feature complete, I mean it will work in downtown San Francisco and downtown Manhattan this year."
So I guess there might be more than just a "minimally functional" traffic light / stop sign + city driving behavior if the intent is to include urban. It seems very likely this capability will require the FSD computer, but hopefully some of it makes it to HW2/.5 people still waiting for the upgrade.
"Yeah, there are a lot of edge cases in Manhattan and downtown San Francisco, and there are various cities around the world that have challenging urban environments, but we do not expect this to be a significant issue. When I say feature complete, I mean it will work in downtown San Francisco and downtown Manhattan this year."
So I guess there might be more than just a "minimally functional" traffic light / stop sign + city driving behavior if the intent is to include urban. It seems very likely this capability will require the FSD computer, but hopefully some of it makes it to HW2/.5 people still waiting for the upgrade.
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