Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?
It does. However, the car has just as much electric heat available as a Tesla, and folks who disable that function say the car works and heats just fine without it, so I think the point stands.
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Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?
Maybe in CARB states, but not in the rest of the U.S. according to my experience. In fact at times, the Volt has the weakest incentives than the average GM vehicle.From my impression, GM loaded the Volt with just as many incentives (maybe more).
One thing that combustion is rather efficient at is producing heat. A while back I read about a few "EVs" in cold climates coming with Webasto heaters. Is that still considered an EV?Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?
One thing that combustion is rather efficient at is producing heat. A while back I read about a few "EVs" in cold climates coming with Webasto heaters. Is that still considered an EV?
I am referring to the narrow view of "EV/Hybrid Experience" not the mechanical definition of such. There are 69 pages of the pure definition back and forth that I don't think there is any chance that either side is going to back down. I was jokingly using fish tank as an absurd reference of alternate power source (which I should have used hamster wheel for an better analogy to start with so the permanent nature of power source can be highlighted versus gold fish that can't be imagined to power the EV in anyway) Of course I agree the danger of green washing from Prius plug-in and a whole host of crippled EV mode hybrids to flood the consumer's mind. What I don't understand is the urge in discounting Volt's ability to operate in essence as an non-crippled EV for a couple hours of city driving time and categorizing it as the same as coasting ICEs for at most a minute?from GM Chevy Volt
When you do this, you have transformed the Model X into a hybrid. Hybrids have a permanent baggage if you decide to use only part of it's drivetrain.
Take a car with three different drivetrains:
Volt - ICE only (hypothetical)
Volt - Hybrid (current setup)
Volt - Pure Battery Electric/EV (hypothetical)
Load those three up with the same cargo, let's say fish tank, and you'll find that each one drives differently. It may be similar but they will drive differently. It's inherent within the design. Each have their advantage/disadvantage.
ICE = price advantage (for now)
Hybrid = fuel economy vs. ICE, range vs. Battery
Battery = NVH, local air quality
There's more, but I think you get the idea.
If you really want to feel the difference in experience, try it with a motorcycle with differing drivetrains. As an example:
Let's make it really simple to understand:
Electric (EV) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ICE
Once you move the mark one point from either end, it becomes a hybrid and that's where the manufacturers come up with different marketing names (E-REV, HSD, etc...)
What if next year the i3 REx series engine was changed to use a series/parallel transaxle instead of just using a series generator in order to improve its highway efficiency?Actually when I see the Volt I see a hybrid since both systems are tightly integrated, the "ICE with additional stuff" comment was simply in response to another comment as another way to look at the vehicle. The i3 hybrid is clearly an EV with a series ICE option added on, since you can buy the EV version, which makes it a series plugin hybrid. If the Volt had been designed from the beginning as an EV and offered with an optional series ICE version I'd see it the same as the i3 hybrid.
I am referring to the narrow view of "EV/Hybrid Experience" not the mechanical definition of such. There are 69 pages of the pure definition back and forth that I don't think there is any chance that either side is going to back down. I was jokingly using fish tank as an absurd reference of alternate power source (which I should have used hamster wheel for an better analogy to start with so the permanent nature of power source can be highlighted versus gold fish that can't be imagined to power the EV in anyway) Of course I agree the danger of green washing from Prius plug-in and a whole host of crippled EV mode hybrids to flood the consumer's mind. What I don't understand is the urge in discounting Volt's ability to operate in essence as an non-crippled EV for a couple hours of city driving time and categorizing it as the same as coasting ICEs for at most a minute?
Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?
What if next year the i3 REx series engine was changed to use a series/parallel transaxle instead of just using a series generator in order to improve its highway efficiency?
Would it still be an EV with an ICE option added on?
One thing that combustion is rather efficient at is producing heat. A while back I read about a few "EVs" in cold climates coming with Webasto heaters. Is that still considered an EV?
So, a vehicle cannot be an EV if it uses certain prohibited gearbox designs?No since the parallel setup would mean a different mechanical design for the drivetrain. The current i3 has the same drivetrain in each configuration. i.e. an electric motor. Your suggestion puts an ICE into the drivetrain.
It's really not, I think you misinterpreted what I said in my original quote above. An EV is a vehicle powered only by a battery pack, or maybe someday a capacitor bank. The i3 battery only version is an EV. The version with the ICE is a hybrid, a plugin series hybrid to be specific. That version was created by adding a generator to an existing EV. As you quoted me above:Your definition of "EV" seems rather arbitrary to me.
The i3 hybrid is clearly an EV with a series ICE option added on, since you can buy the EV version, which makes it a series plugin hybrid.
I'm not discounting the Volt's ability. In fact, when people ask me for my opinion when they're shopping for a car and they bring up hybrids, I ask them if they do more city (Volt - as long as you don't need the fifth seat) or highway (Prius). The Volt and Prius are very capable vehicles for what they were designed to do. They ask me about the LEAF, but I lead them away from that if they don't meet the criteria - distance driven, 2nd car access, location (chargers aren't that many outside the city). Most don't have the capital necessary for Tesla, but the ones that do seem to be more interested in Ferrari, Porsche, Jaguar or the GTR. Then I tell them that some of those you can't row your own gears, but that'll warrant another thread.
I think what you're sensing is the feeling that hybrids are a step and full battery EVs are the goal. Everyone wants the goal, but without the steps in between it's harder to reach. For many, full battery EVs aren't quite there yet and that's where the Prius and the Volt come in. They're "gateway" vehicles as many have testified in this forum.
I remember reading an article when California gave in to the auto manufacturers where Toyota mentioned that full battery EV isn't quite there yet and that hybrids would be the way to get there. I think in the article they mentioned the battery getting bigger as we get closer to a full battery EV for mobility. That's why they discontinued the RAV4 EV and developed the Prius.
ICE >> Prius-type >> Volt-type >> full BEV (goal!) <--- This is what that article was outlining.
But it didn't happen that way. Prius happened, but Tesla just straight out went to full BEV (stole the ball) and now the whole industry is trying to catch up.
We will have to agree to disagree. The pure mechanical definition of EV is clear and I am not disputing that. This was why I posted my original argument on experience in the Volt thread but got diverted to this thread titled as "BEV dogma." But I digress...This seems simple:
- Vehicles with a single source of power, have a single architecture: ICE; BEV, HFCV EV, Steam engine, etc...
- Vehicles with multiple sources of power are hybrids: ICE/Battery; HVCV/Battery, etc...
There are variations within each category:
- Some ICE's have manual transmissions, some have autos, some are CVTs, some are diesels, some save fuel by stopping the engine at a stoplight, some have turbos, etc...
- Some hybrids are parallel, some serial, some combo, some plug in, etc...
There are vastly different operating characteristics within the architecture of "ICE": MPG, speed, power, range, etc.... yet nobody denies they are all ICEs.
So also, there vastly different characteristic within the architecture of hybrid: MPG, speed, power, range per mode, etc... yet they are also all hybrids.
We will have to agree to disagree. The pure mechanical definition of EV is clear and I am not disputing that. This was why I posted my original argument on experience in the Volt thread but got diverted to this thread titled as "BEV dogma." But I digress...
A "human experience" is not perfect, and like it or not we all live in this imperfect world that is not purely defined by engineering terms. What the public or general population's view of the function a particular object is determined for the most part by what the human would need to do with it and not by the machine could do in every conceivable circumstances.
We are all emotional and when pressed we all over-state what we intend to convey. Greater good a lot of times comes from meeting people's where they are with perception instead of insisting the fundamentalist view and inadvertently limit people's chance in migration to electric mobility. Often we think we are conveying clearly what are good definitions abit a little complex, yet general car buying population still come away with ideas blending adaptation of their perception with wrong pieces of info what you were trying to emphasize. Given the current poisonous environment I find it much more beneficial to "dumb it down" into what they need to do in assisting non-technical car buying public deciding their actual buying choices.
I find it borderline disingenuous to cast updated i3 Rex and Volt as the same category as Prius-type of vehicle with an EV bias; when clearly those type of vehicles are capable of providing " EV experience" that are designed to be routinely operate without use of ICE. There are SAE definitions of EV and EREV, PHV; then there are manufactures such as Toyota and GM try to sway and fudge the consensus or perception of consensus to their own financial benefit. Hybrid happens to be defined by Prius (purely parallel hybrid) over the last decade and like it or not it is not likely to change given that the largest automobile company would like to milk that perception for as long as possible.
Fortunately serial hybrid came to the rescue by giving more people the "EV experience" that was otherwise being barred from mental barriers instilled by multiple special interest groups. Unfortunately by the nature of design the serial hybrids also has flaws in efficiency that can be easily exploited by strictly parallel hybrids manufactures from only one fuel type such as HSD to create this mirage of logical transition path to hydrogen fuel-cell. That way they can slow down the adoption of plugs and overall speed of electrification. And that is why I find it objectionable for Pure BEV dogma people to label anyone opposing their view of what an "EV experience" should be with label such as "Volt apologist." I have no problem with Hybrids that offered "EV experience" being called a special kinds of EVs if that helps people getting a taste of what an electrification future could be.
Okay, off my soapbox and I won't post anymore in this thread.
Okay, I am lured back to break my promise of not posting in this thread...From that long post, all I got was that you don't want to break the mold. Why?
Break the mold the Prius has set! Get more people in Volts! Don't do what GM did which didn't do much for the image of both hybrid and BEV.
In the end, I think the argument is really just about how fine or coarse you want to categorize all the different types...
I and what's more operates in series/parallel mode for the vast majority of it's specified operating range, appears disingenuous.