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PowerWall and "The Missing Piece..." Event

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I think we are forgetting that if you could sell power back to the grid lots of people would tent their fingers together and plan to charge at superchargers and then go sell the power to the grid. Or, charge at work and do the same. Unless you have a solution for that it is an uncomfortable situation.

I actually did think of that and it's a good point. One way around it could be slowing the charge of SCs near the homes of owners like bonaire read about today (just 10 days before the big announcement, what a coincidence), if this is possible I assume the SC is able to registrate the VIN of the car charging, if true I guess Tesla could easily pin point any possible abusers automatically.
 
A new product for Tesla that is not a car.

I agree that the most likely thing is the home battery pack. Thinking out of the box, how about carbon fiber body panels? Tesla is in Silicon Valley and someone could have come up with an inexpensive way to make them. It would be a great lead in and help to the Model 3 to maximize range.

It's not likely but it would be awesome.
 
I don't think the utilities are particularly interested in shaving the peaks of demand, yes they pay a lot more for peak power but they are just sending that bill to the consumer, with a markup of course, so as long as they don't take a serious margin hit on the higher peak power revenues, if any, they are making more money with the peaks. It would save the consumer money to shave the peaks though so if you could sell back power from your car battery it would be advantageous to everyone, but the utilites, who would earn a bit less money due to a revenue cut.
I disagree for two reasons.

First, many utilities don't have means (e.g. fuel adjustment clause) that lets it get every dollar back. Usually there is some risk-sharing between customers and the utility to encourage the utility to make prudent power management choices, so the utility's shareholders can get upside by managing power costs downward.

Second, the utilities are revenue constrained. Utility commissions want to limit rate increases, and if the power cost is rising, the commission tends to limit the growth of the wires side of the bill. That puts a crimp on the utility's capex plans. Utilities don't make a profit (or very little profit) on power sales, however; they earn their returns on capital invested. Therefore, keeping power prices low expands the political headroom for rate increases to pay for more hardware.

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I'm not sure where I posted this info before, but there's an important regulatory problem that any of these retail solutions face in the parts of the U.S. where the grid is operated by a FERC-regulated Regional Transmission Operator, which is most of us:
rto_map.gif

The problem is that the D.C. Court of Appeals has ruled that these RTOs can't pay retail customers; only state-regulated utilities are allowed to play in the retail space. The case, EPSA v PJM, narrowly read impacts only PJM's capacity market (which pays generators to be available for dispatch); retail customers willing to reduce demand on the grid are now excluded from selling their turn-down capacity. But unsurprisingly the ruling--which is binding nationally--has called into question all programs by all RTOs that involves retail customers. EPSA has been appealed by the Solicitor General to the SCOTUS, which hasn't yet taken any action about whether it will take it up. In any case, a SCOTUS remand to the D.C. Court couldn't occur until next summer, at the earliest, and so we're not looking for an actual reversal until 2017. Until then, participation by retail customers in the wholesale grid is very much up in the air.

This is a big deal because none of the utilities within these RTOs actually operates the power grid: the RTO, not the utilities, dispatches and pays power plants, manages system reliability, secures operating reserves, and decides what transmission lines to build or upgrade. In other words, they control the pursestrings.
 
Tesla is not going to limit charge rates near home. That's a silly error prone idea. How would Tesla even know with any reliability where you live? Unless they regularly track your cars, which would be a huge privacy issue. There are also cases where it is completely legitimate to use a supercharger near home. If I were having my Christmas in Colorado this year, I would start by driving east to pick up my Grandma, and then going west to get to Colorado. On the trip, I would stop at the supercharger near my home on the way to Colorado. It would be extremely annoying if my charge rate were reduced, and I would be taking up a stall even longer than if it didn't do this. Which brings up the next point. A certain percentage of folks would just sit at the supercharger even longer taking up a spot they wouldn't need if they would charge at home. You might deter some, but others will just take up the spot longer.
 
Limiting charge rates at SC stations near home would be a really bad policy. It would piss off customers and may even engender a law suit for false advertising. The important thing is to keep the SC stalls available. Arbitrarily slowing down charge rates will only tie up stalls longer and make it so that Tesla has to install more chargers to handle capacity. The installation and perhaps rental costs are costly compared to the energy cost. So speeding up charge rates is actually the way to be more economical, not slowing them down. So this would be bad policy both for customers and Tesla.

Additionally, there is nothing wrong with customers using SC stations on a regular, even daily basis. Many people do not have adequate charging at home. Rather than bypassing that market, Tesla should engage those markets by offering free, fast and local charging. It is much more important to make the sale of a car, than to try to save a few bucks on electricity. For someone living in a dense urban area, we are talking about $150 to $300 per year in electricity cost for local driving. This is a really low price to pay to motivate the sale of a $100,000 vehicle.
 
Don't forget Elon is a visionary!

Or could they have bought it from whoever registered it in 2004. Wasn't there a post on here somewhere of an energy drink called "Tesla Energy" with that web address?

Tesla Energy Drink

4492312051.jpg


...yeah, can't see that getting off the ground looking to close to Tesla Motors. He can't even pretend he had the idea first:

This is where I wondered whether there could be a fuel for innovation, whether there could be a drink inspired by great minds. Elon Musk, founder of Tesla Motors and Nikola Tesla both came to mind, they were both my role models. This is where Tesla Energy was created, an energy drink paying homage to the coolest inventors around, a drink for all to enjoy and become motivated
 
So if you really want to know what Tesla is looking in to building as a new product line, why not check their employment board? I'm sure that whatever new thing they are releasing they are also hiring for.
Engineering category:
https://chc.tbe.taleo.net/chc01/ats/careers/searchResults.jsp?org=TESLA&cws=1

Most of them are clearly "directly EV car related". If you exclude those, the following stand out:
  • advanced development projects
  • stationary storage
  • metallurgical scientist/engineer
 
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with customers using SC stations on a regular, even daily basis. Many people do not have adequate charging at home. Rather than bypassing that market, Tesla should engage those markets by offering free, fast and local charging. It is much more important to make the sale of a car, than to try to save a few bucks on electricity. For someone living in a dense urban area, we are talking about $150 to $300 per year in electricity cost for local driving. This is a really low price to pay to motivate the sale of a $100,000 vehicle.

Completely agree. And so many ways to offset even that small cost with partnerships, marketing value etc. Fueling EV will eventually be a near free commodity. I expect Tesla to be an early leverage of this. Good point jhm
 
Limiting charge rates at SC stations near home would be a really bad policy. It would piss off customers and may even engender a law suit for false advertising. The important thing is to keep the SC stalls available. Arbitrarily slowing down charge rates will only tie up stalls longer and make it so that Tesla has to install more chargers to handle capacity. The installation and perhaps rental costs are costly compared to the energy cost. So speeding up charge rates is actually the way to be more economical, not slowing them down. So this would be bad policy both for customers and Tesla.
Tenting fingers...

Hm, warranty doesn't cover degradation. So perhaps rather than slow down the charge rate of "supercharge daily campers", maybe increase the charge rate -- "Sure, you can supercharge and burn through your battery's life faster. And we can sell you a replacement battery sooner."
 
Fueling EV will eventually be a near free commodity.

Why should it be near free? In fact, the more EVs on the road, the more grid demand there will be. Electricity is somewhat cheap on the wholesale grid-scale market but not when demand stresses a grid region. I don't see a growing future fuel based on a generally low-growth source (grid power plants) become "free". It most likely will increase in prices. (see the Blink Network charging .49/kWh or more - yuck...) Tesla is not supplying free electricity either - it is a corporate expense where the car's price factors in some of the price into the supercharger network.
 
Why should it be near free? In fact, the more EVs on the road, the more grid demand there will be. Electricity is somewhat cheap on the wholesale grid-scale market but not when demand stresses a grid region. I don't see a growing future fuel based on a generally low-growth source (grid power plants) become "free". It most likely will increase in prices. (see the Blink Network charging .49/kWh or more - yuck...) Tesla is not supplying free electricity either - it is a corporate expense where the car's price factors in some of the price into the supercharger network.

Probably because the cost of electricity is near-free.

Gas stations make extremely little profit on the cost of their fuel, why should we go with a Blink style network where you pay 500-1000% the of the electricity put into your vehicle?

Charging will eventually go the way of the gas station, where profits come from a store with merchandise--just expand that quite a bit because you can put a charging station in front of a movie theater and in a parking spot, but you can't put a gas station there.

It makes a lot of sense to simply tie parking and charging costs together. Pay $12 a day for a parking garage in a city, and you can use $1-2 of electricity all you want.
 
Why should it be near free? In fact, the more EVs on the road, the more grid demand there will be. Electricity is somewhat cheap on the wholesale grid-scale market but not when demand stresses a grid region. I don't see a growing future fuel based on a generally low-growth source (grid power plants) become "free". It most likely will increase in prices. (see the Blink Network charging .49/kWh or more - yuck...) Tesla is not supplying free electricity either - it is a corporate expense where the car's price factors in some of the price into the supercharger network.
I beleive the production of electricity (and its storage in super capacitors) will eventually be near free for the taking as a commodity technology (solar-storage). The fuel is already free from the fusion, it really becomes an energy conversion at the point of use. The cost of which will be dictated by the technology and drop well below even the cost to of grid distribution much less production (distribution largely eliminated from conversion at point of use). Time frame for my thoughts 20 years or so to reach a near free synthetic conversion and store.
 
I beleive the production of electricity (and its storage in super capacitors) will eventually be near free for the taking as a commodity technology (solar-storage). The fuel is already free from the fusion, it really becomes an energy conversion at the point of use. The cost of which will be dictated by the technology and drop well below even the cost to of grid distribution much less production (distribution largely eliminated from conversion at point of use). Time frame for my thoughts 20 years or so to reach a near free synthetic conversion and store.
LOL. Sorry, but we've heard this before: when the first nuclear plants were coming on line, the public was repeatedly told that they would make electricity "too cheap to meter." That didn't work out, did it?

Just because the fuel cost is low doesn't mean that the capital cost is zero. Quite the other way around: as a general matter, the capital cost and operating cost of a power plant are inversely related. You can have a cheap, low-efficiency combustion turbine, or a more expensive, more efficient combined cycle gas turbine, or a very costly, fuel-is-free wind farm (measuring "cost" here lifetime amortized capital cost per MWh). The electricity charges have to be high enough to pay the capital and operating costs of the generation fleet plus the capital and operating costs of the transmission and distribution system. Depending on where you live, commercial-scale onshore wind costs from about 3¢–10¢/kWh.

Historically the cheapest electricity has required large-scale installations. To use your technology example, all the credible fusion setups I've seen are aiming for multi-MW scale; not exactly the sort of gadget a homeowner keeps in his basement. Solar is the only tech I'm aware of where the distributed version isn't substantially less efficient than the commercial version (efficiency measured as cost/kWh).

If power were free then the storage market would collapse. The entire economic premise of storage is that it's cheaper to obtain electricity at one time than another.
 
LOL. Sorry, but we've heard this before: when the first nuclear plants were coming on line, the public was repeatedly told that they would make electricity "too cheap to meter." That didn't work out, did it?

Just because the fuel cost is low doesn't mean that the capital cost is zero. Quite the other way around: as a general matter, the capital cost and operating cost of a power plant are inversely related. You can have a cheap, low-efficiency combustion turbine, or a more expensive, more efficient combined cycle gas turbine, or a very costly, fuel-is-free wind farm (measuring "cost" here lifetime amortized capital cost per MWh). The electricity charges have to be high enough to pay the capital and operating costs of the generation fleet plus the capital and operating costs of the transmission and distribution system. Depending on where you live, commercial-scale onshore wind costs from about 3¢–10¢/kWh.

Historically the cheapest electricity has required large-scale installations. To use your technology example, all the credible fusion setups I've seen are aiming for multi-MW scale; not exactly the sort of gadget a homeowner keeps in his basement. Solar is the only tech I'm aware of where the distributed version isn't substantially less efficient than the commercial version (efficiency measured as cost/kWh).

If power were free then the storage market would collapse. The entire economic premise of storage is that it's cheaper to obtain electricity at one time than another.
I don't think that nuclear, coal or gas are good analogies to wind and solar. Nuclear has very high capital cost and serious environmental, containment and regulatory issues. Coal and gas have high capital cost and high ongoing cost for fuel (as well as environmental impacts which are currently not priced into their cost but will become a serious issue over time). Wind and solar have relatively low capital cost and free fuel. Wind and solar are economical at even small scale. Anyone can put a solar array on their roof and generate power at less cost than they currently pay for electricity from the power company today and this cost will only decline in the future. This is close to "free" energy and I see nothing which would make it more expensive ever.
Energy storage is a separate issue. All energy sources have a time component. Nuclear is 100% on or off (mostly) so is difficult to modulate to demand. Gas is the most flexible. Wind and solar produce energy on their own (mostly predictable) schedule. To manage the grid, you will need storage to balance all of the different sources with demand. Power may be "free" at some times but these times will not necessarily correspond to the times when it can be used so storage will be necessary.
 
It only fits with that mission IF you can charge your car from your home storage unit. IMHO that would be a BIG announcement for TESLA.

Tesla makes batteries.
Tesla wants to build an enormous battery factory, and to do that quickly needs some investment from the various suppliers involved in the manufacture of Panasonic cells.
To get that, Tesla needs to prove they have the demand.
 
anyone want to guess at the cost for a 10KWH home pack?

$7500?

Anything below $10k excluding subsidies will be a killer in today's market, if it includes all the power electronics and controlling units, remote access etc i.e. "full package". I would like to see Tesla have a gross margin of +30% on these :)

Knowing Elon's philosophy though Tesla won't price it a the price point the market can tolerate, but at a price point where Tesla is making the margin it wants to and if they end up with a substantially lower price than any competition then so be it. Elon has remarked with regards to economists questioning why they didn't just raise the price of the Model S, especially in Europe afther the dollar weakened, seeing as there is more demand than production capacity: The car was expensive enough as it is.