Porsche starting to take Tesla seriously

[pr0teu5]

This is what boggles my mind a bit. OEMs are giant corporations and corporations' primary motivation is profit, so why are they sinking so much money, time, and resources into devoloping non-competitive products (basically the bare minimum to not be laughed out of the room) that will only sell in small numbers and lose money on each unit? Why wouldn't they try to make a product far ahead of the competition and own the segment for a few years (a la Toyota with hybrids)? Especially those companies who always brag about how innovative and forward-thinking they are. They need a disclaimer in their ads which states "but only if we don't really need to do any work". Of course, there is a scale of effort between brands...

I don't think it's really about the work that's required, it's more about the risk. Why would a a CEO risk his reputation and his job by sinking a large amount of money on a ground up electric vehicle project, when the fruits of that project are necessarily long term and his is evaluated on short term results. So they do minimal risk projects that stand as fig leafs for compliance and eco conscious consumers and will probably only ramp up production when they are forced too either my market pressures or regulation.

Tesla on the other hand has been purely electric from the get go so there's really no room for messing around. They have to invest all they have in making better electric cars at higher and higher volumes or else they die. It just so happens that such large investments give them a really large advantage over the big companies in the short/medium term.

 

[Mayhemm]

I don't think it's really about the work that's required, it's more about the risk. Why would a a CEO risk his reputation and his job by sinking a large amount of money on a ground up electric vehicle project, when the fruits of that project are necessarily long term and his is evaluated on short term results. So they do minimal risk projects that stand as fig leafs for compliance and eco conscious consumers and will probably only ramp up production when they are forced too either my market pressures or regulation.

Yeah, risk is probably a better term, but my point still stands. Their actions are at odds with what they claim to be about in their ads (surprising exactly no one). They aren't about "Driving forward" or "Finding new roads". They're about resting on their laurels, doing as little as is possible without anybody calling them on it. Part of this is because they're selling a stagnant product at the end of its lifespan that has nowhere to go. But it's also because they no longer show pride in their work or a desire to create the best product they can, unless someone is forcing them to. These are qualities Tesla has in spades and what makes them different from all the other OEMs.

 

[richkae]

Don't forget that corporations are actually people, but not one person.

There are many characters involved:

1. Legacy division VP who is defending the profit of his division.
2. Junior VP seeking the home run project to get that next promotion.
3. Old guard types afraid to rock the boat.
4. Young guns who are eager to take incredible risk, if it doesn't work they will tap LinkedIn and move on.
5. VP of parts division who lives and dies with the service gravy train.
6. Components supply division czar who insists that it be done in house.
7. Raider type who says risk can be reduced with outsourcing, while skimming the deal.

Imagine 50 talking heads arguing in a room, backstabbing each other, clamoring for the ear of the chairman, check one or more boxes for each character.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Porsche chief Matthias Mueller said "where we have to follow up now.” Meaning we are behind and we need to catch up now. I do believe they have receive reports of customers deciding for Tesla over 911 or so. I don't know if I'm the only one however a year a ago I used to look up at 911 or BMW M3 or AMG mercs. For me they were the best cars. Now I don't feel that way anymore. In my head today I see them as good cars with old tech fossil fuel drive trains. I just can't get around the fossil fuel drive train making me not desire them like I used too. I would love to know if this has happened to you? Also Did anybody decide to buy a Tesla over a Porsche/AMG/m3? And if so why?

You are definitely not alone. I heard of one 911 driver who sat down in a Model S for a test drive, drove down the street, turned straight back to the store to replaced the 911 with a Model S. All it took was one press of that accelerator pedal.

My own feelings about Tesla and EVs - and the exact same feelings as yours - are in my signature link. I just can't crave those great ICEs anymore.

I was checking out a facelift A8 today, appreciating its color and design, and then thinking I could never ever again buy one. Not as long as they are the old fliphone to the iPhone that is Tesla. No matter how nice.

 

[tomas]

You are definitely not alone. I heard of one 911 driver who sat down in a Model S for a test drive, drove down the street, turned straight back to the store to replaced the 911 with a Model S. All it took was one press of that accelerator pedal.

My own feelings about Tesla and EVs - and the exact same feelings as yours - are in my signature link. I just can't crave those great ICEs anymore.

I was checking out a facelift A8 today, appreciating its color and design, and then thinking I could never ever again buy one. Not as long as they are the old fliphone to the iPhone that is Tesla. No matter how nice.

Same thing. I used to look forward every month to getting my car magazines (actually, every week until I dropped Autoweek for writing fiction). Now, I get them, flip through, ho hum, into the recycle. Latest Ferrari, check. Latest Porsche, check. Long term Mazda test, check. I can get excited about the ICE cars as styling exercises, and I watch features with curiosity. But, it's hard to really get interested when I know I won't buy any of them. Much more interesting to go on TMC and speculate on what's in the next firmware update, or what evolution it will take to get me to buy my next Tesla.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Same thing. I used to look forward every month to getting my car magazines (actually, every week until I dropped Autoweek for writing fiction). Now, I get them, flip through, ho hum, into the recycle. Latest Ferrari, check. Latest Porsche, check. Long term Mazda test, check. I can get excited about the ICE cars as styling exercises, and I watch features with curiosity. But, it's hard to really get interested when I know I won't buy any of them. Much more interesting to go on TMC and speculate on what's in the next firmware update, or what evolution it will take to get me to buy my next Tesla.

It always saddens me how bad the average English speaking car magazine (mostly British in my case) is concerning EVs. It is like looking at a world completely alien to me, the stuff they write about, now that the way I see the car world is basically the TMC quote in my signature.

This change happened in the span of days last year, for me (to my defense, I live in a market that's probably a decade behind the US when it comes to EVs). It clicked fast, but when it did, the old world was gone. I don't see it coming back, until the old world decides to move to the new one.

 

[lolachampcar]

I can appreciate the advances in ICE design with the gains in both power and efficiency. I just have no need to purchase them any more

 

[dirkhh]

Oh, and for the poster above questioning what to do with all those batteries, I believe Tesla is going after the distributed generating business to displace existing power utilities. If you thought the automotive market was big........................

"distributed generating" + ability to STORE that energy so it's available when you need it, not just when you can produce it. THAT is an insanely massive opportunity.
I heard a story on OPB the other day that quoted a study that Oregon could easily produce all the electricity it needs from renewable sources (mainly wind), but that the production and consumption are almost perfectly opposite curves (highest production at night which has lowest consumption and vice versa). I was trying to find a link to the study but my Google foo is failing me...

 

[brucet999]

I love our e-Golf almost as much as I do our Model S.

I looked at eGolf and was impressed that it drives nicely and looks like a real car (unlike the BMW i3 clown car) with lots of useable cargo space and comfortable back seat leg and headroom. But I decided to stretch myself to buy a Tesla when I realized that eGolf's 83-mile EPA range would not allow me even to pick up my daughters at LAX (41 mi one way) when they come to visit, much less take a road trip. The lack of public fast charging facilities right now, even at the VW dealer's location, hurts too but a planned "Hanseatic League" (VW-BMW-Mercedes) charging network will eventually help out there.

 

[dirkhh]

...but a planned "Hanseatic League" (VW-BMW-Mercedes) charging network will eventually help out there.

Hmm. BMW is based in Munich, Mercedes is based outside Stuttgart. Neither of those are anywhere close to the Hanseatic League territory. And having BMW and Mercedes agree on the time of day (or share a charging network), that would be an amazing feat...

 

[3mp_kwh]

Same thing. I used to look forward every month to getting my car magazines (actually, every week until I dropped Autoweek for writing fiction). Now, I get them, flip through, ho hum, into the recycle. Latest Ferrari, check. Latest Porsche, check. Long term Mazda test, check. I can get excited about the ICE cars as styling exercises, and I watch features with curiosity. But, it's hard to really get interested when I know I won't buy any of them. Much more interesting to go on TMC and speculate on what's in the next firmware update, or what evolution it will take to get me to buy my next Tesla.

Well, the cars they cover are beginning to creep up. For example, the Q7 is finally getting almost, cough, double the battery storage of all the ~9kwh German PHEVs. The mags still generally can't get their heads around the kwh, but if Tesla does something like bring the window buttons onto the big 17" screen, it'll be an evolution, alright. That extreme example one-ups where I worry their heads are.

As they creep up, nobody yet knows what the sales results will look like. Do we know if buyers brake off when daily mileage is sufficiently EV and powerful? When a Porsche Cayenne gets ~30kwh? I'd speculatie how Tesla could lag new buyers expectations, for things like interiors, and not be able to fix them with software. You can't download better seats, if they aren't here fast enough, or if you continue to want a premium on ones that some might call a fix, rather than an improvement. You can't download seat memory to the door, if you chose to bury it in the sizzling 17" screen...etc. Ergonomics aren't old-school. I hope sales results aren't where they find out.

I still get Autoweek, because I guess it is like what the WSJ is to finance. We don't have to agree with their disposition, or ignorance. While I don't think AW has really begun to change, MT, Automobile and at least some of what you see in C&D is beginning to. It's good to "check". I hope Tesla does it, too, and doesn't bake too much in their own exceptionalism.

 

[30seconds]

Same thing. I used to look forward every month to getting my car magazines (actually, every week until I dropped Autoweek for writing fiction). Now, I get them, flip through, ho hum, into the recycle. Latest Ferrari, check. Latest Porsche, check. Long term Mazda test, check. I can get excited about the ICE cars as styling exercises, and I watch features with curiosity. But, it's hard to really get interested when I know I won't buy any of them. Much more interesting to go on TMC and speculate on what's in the next firmware update, or what evolution it will take to get me to buy my next Tesla.

This. Lots of Ferraris in my neighborhood. We walked by one today and my kids were trying to convince me to get one. Instead we had a quick discussion of the superiority of multi motor EV architecture.

I cant even get excited to buy any classic car that, up to this point, I have always wanted.

super annoying to have my universe of cool cars be reduced to the S and X. Fortunately I can still enjoy ICE convertibles, at least until there is a good EV one.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This. Lots of Ferraris in my neighborhood. We walked by one today and my kids were trying to convince me to get one. Instead we had a quick discussion of the superiority of multi motor EV architecture.

I cant even get excited to buy any classic car that, up to this point, I have always wanted.

super annoying to have my universe of cool cars be reduced to the S and X. Fortunately I can still enjoy ICE convertibles, at least until there is a good EV one.

I can't help but say I understand completely.

Personally, I can not even enjoy ICE convertibles anymore. The presence of the engine makes itself even more known in a convertible. I can't help but imagine what it would be like to glide around in an EV convertible. Sadly, the Roadster was never available where I live. Heck, electricity is hardly available where I live, but plenty of diesel...

In the span of some minutes or hours, when this realization hit me, my perspective on cars changed dramatically. It is very hard to explain to those who don't get it, yet comforting to hear similar experiences from those who do. I still own a couple of ICEs but I hate them by now, one will probably remain for practical reasons until there are better smaller-than-fullsize EVs available.

In my signature there is a quote from another TMC member that pretty much summarizes the same thoughts you had.

 

[Phil Seastrand]

Sounds like Porsche is not joining the BEV ranks anytime soon:

Porsche Wont Plug in to Electric Cars Any Time Soon, But Plug-in Hybrids OK, Says Tech Boss - Transport Evolved

“Whilst we admire Tesla’s Model S sedan (we’ve even bought one to study) if we were to drive it at the permissible high speeds in Germany (like so many Porsche owners do), say from Munich to Frankfurt, the advertised range of around 430 kilometres would likely be severely reduced and potentially not enough charge would be available for the round trip commute,” he said. “I think it’s going to be at least five years before EV technology is where it needs to be, at least for Porsche.”

 

[Jaff]

Or, lead-footed German drivers could just slow down to safer speed...:wink:

 

[Galve2000]

The current noise we here from the high end car manufacturers is simple: each believes that the sale of a Tesla is a sale they lost.

I believe this is true also.

 

[gavine]

Same thing. I used to look forward every month to getting my car magazines (actually, every week until I dropped Autoweek for writing fiction). Now, I get them, flip through, ho hum, into the recycle. Latest Ferrari, check. Latest Porsche, check. Long term Mazda test, check. I can get excited about the ICE cars as styling exercises, and I watch features with curiosity. But, it's hard to really get interested when I know I won't buy any of them. Much more interesting to go on TMC and speculate on what's in the next firmware update, or what evolution it will take to get me to buy my next Tesla.

+ 1

- - - Updated - - -

"distributed generating" + ability to STORE that energy so it's available when you need it, not just when you can produce it. THAT is an insanely massive opportunity.
I heard a story on OPB the other day that quoted a study that Oregon could easily produce all the electricity it needs from renewable sources (mainly wind), but that the production and consumption are almost perfectly opposite curves (highest production at night which has lowest consumption and vice versa). I was trying to find a link to the study but my Google foo is failing me...

This is why I bought Tesla stock recently.....

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A number of friends have made the move to Tesla from a lifetime of Porsches, BMWs, Mercedes and Audis. The current noise we here from the high end car manufacturers is simple: each believes that the sale of a Tesla is a sale they lost.

Well put. I may have to use that quote sometimes.

Although of course it probably isn't quite as simple, because Tesla also attracts more budget-conscious buyers who push the envelope of what they can buy.

In several markets also the subvention and/or eco-friendly taxation is helping Tesla attract buyers that would never consider the same-class high-end alternatives.

 

[JohnQ]

Or, lead-footed German drivers could just slow down to safer speed...:wink:

That's just envy speaking :tongue:

 

[dirkhh]

Or, lead-footed German drivers could just slow down to safer speed...:wink:

Take a look at highway safety statistics, deaths per km driven, etc. Germany's numbers are better than those of the US