Pack Replacement Thread

[ModelS1079]

One year plus two months and 30k miles. Max charge 240, A Battery, have never tried to balance. And I burned through my first 19inch goodyears - to the metal- by 20k miles. your roads must be softer than mine....?

 

[Kalud]

That looks like a refurbished sticker. It's smaller and narrower than any of the other stickers and this is consistent with other refurbished stickers I've seen here. Any other new cars have these narrow stickers?

I really don't see any logical link with "smaller and narrower" being refurbished. My car came brand new with that battery, since the production is battery cell constrained I am pretty sure its a brand new pack. Also there is now one more entry in the battery wiki table confirming that around November they switched to D packs. Its just evolution, could be that they updated some internal electronic or even cells or some cost reduction. B came after A and then probably C and then D... November builds are also a couple weeks after the two punctures fires so it might also be related (slight change?)...

What am I pretty sure is that people with A/B pack that get their pack replaced for a new B pack then these are most certainly refurbished unit replaced under warranty...

 

[RichardL]

Someone on this forum mentioned a change in cell version with better chemistry. They stated recent builds had it (D packs?) and that eventually it could yield 93 kWH instead of 85. I did wonder if the Cross Country cars were using that. Anyhow, that is my hope (fantasy)

 

[Reed]

I have a "D pack" as well and updated the wiki. My car was built and delivered in late Oct 2013. Don't think "D pack" has anything to do with refurbished, or should I say... it better not. I picked up my car from the factory brand new on Oct 31, 2013.

 

[stopcrazypp]

3. Finally, engineering recommended balancing. They told me to charge to 100% and leave it that way for 3 days without driving.

This has been confirmed to work multiple times on the forums. The points 1,2 have not (owners here report driving style has nothing to do with the range numbers, although at the same time it's true that there have been shifts in the reported numbers due to firmware changes unrelated to actual pack condition).

I'm still going to do it, but I suspect my refurbished type A pack has more miles on it (a lower SOC) than my original type A pack, and that the current corporate policy is just to replace it with what is available, get the car on the road quickly, and not worry about SOC.

I remember the warranty saying they will replace with a pack with equal or better condition. The only case where I can see why they might not do that is if that pack was the only pack they had available.

 

[SFOTurtle]

This has indeed been suggested many times on the charging threads on here, and is the most effective way to restore your range display to the higher state.

You can't just charge to 100% and leave it, you have to keep it plugged in while it is set to 100%. And only ever do this in cold weather.


If you're very concerned about it, watch through the video in this thread - it completely put my mind at ease:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...atteries-die-And-how-to-improve-the-situation


I don't believe #1 and #2 above for a second. Based on the weather over here, my winter and summer driving behavior are incredibly different, yet the rated range stays exactly the same. And in my case the range displayed is so far removed from reality in the summer that if this was really a dynamic calculation, it would be a ridiculous embarrassment to the programmer that implemented it. And why would this not be a reading that changes per driver?

Software upgrades indeed do change the available range, but it's not further affected by driving style. I think when engineering says this, they're at most talking about the energy graph - which indeed is affected by driving style - rather than the range. (Pet peeve of mine that Tesla doesn't have their service staff get any real experience with the car, so they don't know the difference).

Also if #2 was true, then doing what engineering says won't give you any real additional range. It will simply affect what gets displayed and possibly influence the kWh/mile calculation.

I haven't watched the video yet but will as soon as I get a free hour+ (with twins, that's not easy). Does the video actually dicsuss option #3? I'm guessing my battery is slightly but not hugely out of balance (full charge on my 60 has been yielding 193 although I hit 194 on the Gilroy SC last week when I had to unplug just before completion (it had been hovering at 2-3 amps for about 10 minutes before we had to leave). I'd like to see if that range would come back, at least to near 200 or so, but am nervous about having the car stay at 100% SOC for three straight days (and who knows when I'll be able to idle her for that lenght of time) whether it is plugged in or not.

 

[walla2]

After completing one 100% to 20% and a three day charge at 100, I have 217 miles at 90% and 250 miles at 100% on my refurbished A battery.

This is a no change result in rated range so far. A few more depletion cycles to go, but this remains mildly frustrating to see my pack drop in range due to a no fault by me warranty replacement. Others are back to better than previous stated range with similar failed pack stories. Updates to follow in 2 weeks or so.

 

[FlasherZ]

I have a "D pack" as well and updated the wiki. My car was built and delivered in late Oct 2013. Don't think "D pack" has anything to do with refurbished, or should I say... it better not. I picked up my car from the factory brand new on Oct 31, 2013.

"D" pack is the revision at the end of the Tesla part number structure - XXXXXX-YY-Z, where "Z" is the revision.

The pack will list in the part description whether it is a remanufactured pack or not - it's printed on the label. "D" does not mean remanufactured, as you have suggested.

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This is a no change result in rated range so far. A few more depletion cycles to go, but this remains mildly frustrating to see my pack drop in range due to a no fault by me warranty replacement. Others are back to better than previous stated range with similar failed pack stories. Updates to follow in 2 weeks or so.

I can understand this. However, the service centers are in a bit of a lose-lose-lose situation here -- first, they have no idea what the rated miles of any given pack in the service center are going to be until the pack is installed in the car and charged; even then, they may not have records of what the car previously charged to. Second, even if they were to somehow know how far a pack charged, it's going to delay the return of the car as they would have to discharge the pack, swap it out, and charge the next pack. And third, if they don't have another pack, they may have to wait for one to be shipped and arrive. Something would have to change in corporate service to effect a better experience here -- testing of pack range at corporate before shipping, etc.

 

[apacheguy]

I can understand this. However, the service centers are in a bit of a lose-lose-lose situation here -- first, they have no idea what the rated miles of any given pack in the service center are going to be until the pack is installed in the car and charged; even then, they may not have records of what the car previously charged to. Second, even if they were to somehow know how far a pack charged, it's going to delay the return of the car as they would have to discharge the pack, swap it out, and charge the next pack. And third, if they don't have another pack, they may have to wait for one to be shipped and arrive. Something would have to change in corporate service to effect a better experience here -- testing of pack range at corporate before shipping, etc.

Actually, I think it's quite simple. Record the battery CAC of the old pack, which can supposedly be accessed through their diagnostics, and replace with an equivalent or better refurbished pack. Fremont should certify all refurbished packs for a certain CAC value before shipping them out to service centers, making the task as simple as comparing two values in determining which pack will go back into the customer's car.

And regarding the potential wait time, I'm perfectly happy letting them keep the car as long as they need to give me a D pack. :smile:

@walla2 - Any chance you might be able to ask Tesla for the CAC value of the refurbished pack they gave you?

 

[FlasherZ]

That looks like a refurbished sticker. It's smaller and narrower than any of the other stickers and this is consistent with other refurbished stickers I've seen here. Any other new cars have these narrow stickers?

That is a new module.

Remanufactured "D" packs are part # 1025273-01-D and come with description "ASY,HV BATTERY,S3BB,REMAN".

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Actually, I think it's quite simple. Record the battery CAC of the old pack, which can supposedly be accessed through their diagnostics, and replace with an equivalent or better refurbished pack. Fremont should certify all refurbished packs for a certain CAC value before shipping them out to service centers, making the task as simple as comparing two values in determining which pack will go back into the customer's car.

That wasn't my point - my point was that the service centers don't have the capability to guarantee a pack to you today that meets or exceeds your former capacity, because a) I believe only engineering has access to your logs that house the max rated range of your existing back, and b) there is no way currently for service centers to know the capacity of the packs they have on hand without installing and charging.

As I said, the service centers can't control this. They don't have the ranges handy for their packs on hand. They have to change the process at a corporate level.

 

[hcsharp]

That wasn't my point - my point was that the service centers don't have the capability to guarantee a pack to you today that meets or exceeds your former capacity, because a) I believe only engineering has access to your logs that house the max rated range of your existing back, and b) there is no way currently for service centers to know the capacity of the packs they have on hand without installing and charging.

As I said, the service centers can't control this. They don't have the ranges handy for their packs on hand. They have to change the process at a corporate level.

I think apacheguy is correct on this. The service centers can quite easily look up your CAC and rated miles from your logs. Replacement packs are not unknown variables like you think they are. Usually a reman pack came from another vehicle and then had one or two components replaced. They know the CAC from the logs of the previous vehicle and track this. I've been told they are careful to make sure replacements are at least the same CAC as what they are replacing. If they don't have one high enough at the SC, they order one. Maybe they screwed up in Walla2's case but I think you might be wrong on both a) and b) above.

 

[FlasherZ]

I think apacheguy is correct on this. The service centers can quite easily look up your CAC and rated miles from your logs. Replacement packs are not unknown variables like you think they are. Usually a reman pack came from another vehicle and then had one or two components replaced. They know the CAC from the logs of the previous vehicle and track this. I've been told they are careful to make sure replacements are at least the same CAC as what they are replacing. If they don't have one high enough at the SC, they order one. Maybe they screwed up in Walla2's case but I think you might be wrong on both a) and b) above.

So you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can take a battery pack they received off the truck, look up the serial number of the pack, get the former VIN number that had that pack and the specific date it was replaced, look up that former car, log into that former car, look back into the logs of that car before it had been replaced to determine the max charge that the particular pack had, *and* access and interpret the specific refurbishment steps taken in that particular pack to determine whether any cells were replaced that would make that pack have more capacity?

And you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can look into every log in the car, versus having to file a ticket with engineering to pull those particular logs and analyze them for the service center tech?

I'm not sure I believe that. But hey, I could be wrong. My experience is that the individual techs don't have that much access or analytical responsibility - not to say they can't, but that they simply don't.

 

[hcsharp]

So you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can take a battery pack they received off the truck, look up the serial number of the pack, get the former VIN number that had that pack and the specific date it was replaced, look up that former car, log into that former car, look back into the logs of that car before it had been replaced to determine the max charge that the particular pack had, *and* access and interpret the specific refurbishment steps taken in that particular pack to determine whether any cells were replaced that would make that pack have more capacity?

And you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can look into every log in the car, versus having to file a ticket with engineering to pull those particular logs and analyze them for the service center tech?

I'm not sure I believe that. But hey, I could be wrong. My experience is that the individual techs don't have that much access or analytical responsibility - not to say they can't, but that they simply don't.

I didn't say any individual tech. I said "the service centers" meaning there is at least one person at each SC who can get your logs and take a look at them, which has always been my experience. As for the reman packs, the info is most likely stored in a database with info for each pack. They don't look up the logs from the former VIN every time they want to know something about a particular pack. They record the CAC in the database once, when the pack is removed, update information as necessary if any components are replaced, and make the database accessible to SC managers.

What I think is unknown at any level, whether at the SC or by an engineer, is the level of balancing that a particular pack might need. I would expect a reman pack has to sit without being charged for quite some time before it's installed in a car. That will almost always cause it to go out of balance. The database will have the potential capacity of the pack after it's balanced.

 

[apacheguy]

So you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can take a battery pack they received off the truck, look up the serial number of the pack, get the former VIN number that had that pack and the specific date it was replaced, look up that former car, log into that former car, look back into the logs of that car before it had been replaced to determine the max charge that the particular pack had, *and* access and interpret the specific refurbishment steps taken in that particular pack to determine whether any cells were replaced that would make that pack have more capacity?

I'm a little lost. How could it be so complicated? As hcsharp states I believe they do have access to this info through some sort of internal database. But let's suppose they don't. I'm pretty sure this info can be obtained quickly and painlessly by interrogating a chip on the pack without having to fully mount and install the pack in the car.

What I think is unknown at any level, whether at the SC or by an engineer, is the level of balancing that a particular pack might need. I would expect a reman pack has to sit without being charged for quite some time before it's installed in a car. That will almost always cause it to go out of balance. The database will have the potential capacity of the pack after it's balanced.

Granted, packs that have been sitting for quite some time are likely to be out of balance. But I still don't understand why charging to 100% and allowing the balancing period to complete would not remedy the issue. At least, it has not seemed to work in walla2's case.

 

[brianman]

So you're saying that any individual tech in any service center can take a battery pack they received off the truck, look up the serial number of the pack, get the former VIN number that had that pack and the specific date it was replaced, look up that former car, log into that former car, look back into the logs of that car before it had been replaced to determine the max charge that the particular pack had, *and* access and interpret the specific refurbishment steps taken in that particular pack to determine whether any cells were replaced that would make that pack have more capacity?

The last time I looked closely at the battery crates in the Bellevue Service Center, there was a CAC value printed on the label.

 

[FlasherZ]

The last time I looked closely at the battery crates in the Bellevue Service Center, there was a CAC value printed on the label.

Interesting. I am not aware of that, and I'm not sure every service center even understands that if so. If so, great! I am led to believe otherwise, however.

Another question would be whether the CAC value is the same default for any pack that comes out of remanufacturing, e.g. if they assume the remanufacturing process resulted in a "close-enough" value that defines one number for 85 and another for 60.

 

[walla2]

FlasherZ. I'll trade refurbished packs with you since yours does 240 at 90% and mine only does 217, and we'll call it good. My car has 4500 miles on it . . .

No really, this isn't the service centers fault, but the warranty of the battery replacement clearly says equal or greater value battery, and I highly doubt I got that. I got one from the readily available A refurb lot. I point out this problem because it is in fact a real problem. I lost a significant number of miles and this devalues my car significantly both in dollar and personal value. Again, if anyone thinks this is right, I'll be happy to trade your better CAC battery. There are 20+ pages saying how TMC feels sorry for a guy that ran his pack to below zero (not every post is positive to be fair). My pack died suddenly. This isn't my f###ing fault, and this isn't even remotely right.

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That is a new module.

I wrote it looks like the stickers on refurbished packs. Not that it was a refurb. I asked a question afterward about D stickers on other D cars. Does this no suddenly imply I called it refurbished? Simply wondering about the label changes from A, B batteries to this D battery label having never seen a large collection of D pack labels.

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I still don't understand why charging to 100% and allowing the balancing period to complete would not remedy the issue.

An abused refurb pack with alot of miles on it can't likely return to near new with just balancing. If this was the case, we should be able to balance our cellphones and other lithium battery items back to almost brand new. That doesn't seem to work for me. Out of balance may not be the only factor.

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the remanufacturing process resulted in a "close-enough" value that defines one number for 85 and another for 60.

Putting a "depleted to 60" 85kW pack on a 60 car and calling it "close enough" really seems wrong. Are you suggesting that is a good/acceptable idea?

 

[qwk]

FlasherZ. I'll trade refurbished packs with you since yours does 240 at 90% and mine only does 217, and we'll call it good. My car has 4500 miles on it . . .

No really, this isn't the service centers fault, but the warranty of the battery replacement clearly says equal or greater value battery, and I highly doubt I got that. I got one from the readily available A refurb lot. I point out this problem because it is in fact a real problem. I lost a significant number of miles and this devalues my car significantly both in dollar and personal value. Again, if anyone thinks this is right, I'll be happy to trade your better CAC battery. There are 20+ pages saying how TMC feels sorry for a guy that ran his pack to below zero (not every post is positive to be fair). My pack died suddenly. This isn't my f###ing fault, and this isn't even remotely right.

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I wrote it looks like the stickers on refurbished packs. Not that it was a refurb. I asked a question afterward about D stickers on other D cars. Does this no suddenly imply I called it refurbished? Simply wondering about the label changes from A, B batteries to this D battery label having never seen a large collection of D pack labels.

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An abused refurb pack with alot of miles on it can't likely return to near new with just balancing. If this was the case, we should be able to balance our cellphones and other lithium battery items back to almost brand new. That doesn't seem to work for me. Out of balance may not be the only factor.

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Putting a "depleted to 60" 85kW pack on a 60 car and calling it "close enough" really seems wrong. Are you suggesting that is a good/acceptable idea?

I don't think it's fair, although I'm not sure that anybody here outright said that. Have you taken this up with the SC that installed the pack? I'm sure that they would just pop another pack in, given your dissatisfaction.

Can you post a pic of the battery label? I'm confused as to which battery you received, as multiple letter references keep getting thrown out there.

 

[FlasherZ]

I think you are misinterpreting what I said. I didn't say that it was a good idea to do what they're doing, I simply said that I believe the current processes do not allow for the service centers to verify and validate battery capacity autonomously (without significant Engineering intervention and investigation) before the pack is installed. I said it was a lose-lose-lose situation for the front lines.

I wrote it looks like the stickers on refurbished packs. Not that it was a refurb. I asked a question afterward about D stickers on other D cars. Does this no suddenly imply I called it refurbished? Simply wondering about the label changes from A, B batteries to this D battery label having never seen a large collection of D pack labels.

Please re-read what I wrote, I think you're reading things into it. I made a factual statement involving the descriptions and part numbers of remanufactured assemblies so that everyone else here could tell the difference if they looked. Remanufactured packs are clearly labeled as such. No attack on you, wasn't intended as such. Just a simple factual statement.

Putting a "depleted to 60" 85kW pack on a 60 car and calling it "close enough" really seems wrong. Are you suggesting that is a good/acceptable idea?

That's not what I was saying. I was addressing Brian's recollection that there was a sticker on battery crates that indicated the capacity of a battery pack as it was shipped. I asked whether it had specific tested values for a battery that was shipped, or whether it had "generic" values - one for a remanufactured 85 kWh battery and one for a remanufactured 60 kWh battery. In effect, I was asking whether these "CAC" labels truly reflected the battery's condition or if they were just placed on there as an assumption as the result of a remanufacturing process.

Finally, we don't really know all the scenarios... your service center may have previously swapped a battery pack, and later made a determination that the battery pack wasn't at fault. For example, they may have replaced the battery pack on a car, but later found it to be a charger problem. Because it hadn't failed, it wasn't shipped back to be refurbished, and instead was kept on hand as a viable spare and ended up in your car when yours failed. That's a possible scenario -- not saying it's right.

I hope your issue gets resolved to your satisfaction. Since I don't recall reading the specific details of progress in resolving your case, I must plead ignorance that I don't understand where you've taken this so far. I didn't really care which revision of pack I received, and probably would have been concerned with a loss > 5% in a pack swap.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Gotta love those "know it alls"...