Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

If the current software release is Tesla's answer to protect the battery? I would like to know how does Tesla recommend I drive the car to enjoy the $10K performance, but not break the battery?

If I never use LM, and only pedal mash - can I just PM all day long? As stated earlier - we don't have a red line indicator to avoid?
If I use LM - how many times can I use it?
Earlier someone brought this calculation up. So as it stands right now - to enjoy the $10K performance I must use LM. And we already know that too much LM will damage the battery.

Also I would be very interested in knowing what the performance of my car is with this reduction?

Lets say 465kw gets me at best an eleven second car? Which based on all the prior attempts to break into the 10's would be correct, since no one did it until the V3 battery with around 510kw. Since LM is going to damage the battery eventually ( and I never wanted the car catapulting on its own anyhow ).. I am not going to use LM. So I now have an 11 second car. Tesla will argue that if I use LM it is a 10 second car. I can see this dance going on for many years... with no good outcome.

So how much am I paying per LM ?

If Tesla can state that I can drive as hard as I want, all I want, when maxing out at 465kw? And that if I want full performance I can use LM for say up to ( 100 times a year for 8 years ) and not damage the battery? That would be roughly $10K / 800 or around $12 a launch. So it would be really good to know how many launches I can do, from both a cost perspective and to avoid damage?

Can you imagine just how unlikely a choice for ludicrous mode would have been when ordering the P90DL - if all this information was provided up front????

Transparency... is an ongoing issue with Tesla and the P90DL.

n2mb_racing · Mar 13, 2017

Walta said:
If the current software release is Tesla's answer to protect the battery? I would like to know how does Tesla recommend I drive the car to enjoy the $10K performance, but not break the battery?

If I never use LM, and only pedal mash - can I just PM all day long? As stated earlier - we don't have a red line indicator to avoid?
If I use LM - how many times can I use it?
Earlier someone brought this calculation up. So as it stands right now - to enjoy the $10K performance I must use LM. And we already know that too much LM will damage the battery.

Also I would be very interested in knowing what the performance of my car is with this reduction?

Lets say 465kw gets me at best an eleven second car? Which based on all the prior attempts to break into the 10's would be correct, since no one did it until the V3 battery with around 510kw. Since LM is going to damage the battery eventually ( and I never wanted the car catapulting on its own anyhow ).. I am not going to use LM. So I now have an 11 second car. Tesla will argue that if I use LM it is a 10 second car. I can see this dance going on for many years... with no good outcome.

So how much am I paying per LM ?

If Tesla can state that I can drive as hard as I want, all I want, when maxing out at 465kw? And that if I want full performance I can use LM for say up to ( 100 times a year for 8 years ) and not damage the battery? That would be roughly $10K / 800 or around $12 a launch. So it would be really good to know how many launches I can do, from both a cost perspective and to avoid damage?

Can you imagine just how unlikely a choice for ludicrous mode would have been when ordering the P90DL - if all this information was provided up front????

Transparency... is an ongoing issue with Tesla and the P90DL.

Drive it hard, sell it before the warranty is up...

St Charles · Mar 13, 2017

Walta said:
If the current software release is Tesla's answer to protect the battery? I would like to know how does Tesla recommend I drive the car to enjoy the $10K performance, but not break the battery?

If I never use LM, and only pedal mash - can I just PM all day long? As stated earlier - we don't have a red line indicator to avoid?
If I use LM - how many times can I use it?
Earlier someone brought this calculation up. So as it stands right now - to enjoy the $10K performance I must use LM. And we already know that too much LM will damage the battery.

Also I would be very interested in knowing what the performance of my car is with this reduction?

Lets say 465kw gets me at best an eleven second car? Which based on all the prior attempts to break into the 10's would be correct, since no one did it until the V3 battery with around 510kw. Since LM is going to damage the battery eventually ( and I never wanted the car catapulting on its own anyhow ).. I am not going to use LM. So I now have an 11 second car. Tesla will argue that if I use LM it is a 10 second car. I can see this dance going on for many years... with no good outcome.

So how much am I paying per LM ?

If Tesla can state that I can drive as hard as I want, all I want, when maxing out at 465kw? And that if I want full performance I can use LM for say up to ( 100 times a year for 8 years ) and not damage the battery? That would be roughly $10K / 800 or around $12 a launch. So it would be really good to know how many launches I can do, from both a cost perspective and to avoid damage?

Can you imagine just how unlikely a choice for ludicrous mode would have been when ordering the P90DL - if all this information was provided up front????

Transparency... is an ongoing issue with Tesla and the P90DL.

Given that Tesla is currently replacing packs under warranty, I assume that you are still free to LM away? That's not really good business though. I have to think that they eventually modify the 90kW pack to deal with whatever problem exists.

Thinkfn · Mar 13, 2017

St Charles, by limiting the problem to LM alone, TSLA effectively reduces the use of maximum performance by an extreme amount. Remember, previously all it took was to smash the accelerator pedal.

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

St Charles said:
Given that Tesla is currently replacing packs under warranty, I assume that you are still free to LM away? That's not really good business though. I have to think that they eventually modify the 90kW pack to deal with whatever problem exists.

I hope you are right that they are working on a fix. If they do fix this - do you think Tesla will provide the fix via a recall? I hope so.

The P90DL owners are in a difficult position. I don't think this situation pertains to any other model S's? Maybe the Model X P90DL owners also? Where with V2 and V3 batteries we know that we can drive the car and induce damage. Is that true with V1 owners also?We don't know how exactly the damage is induced. Only a vague idea, that driving hard will cause problems. Looking at the counterGate release - we can assume those counters will guide us to the type of driving that will induce damage. Tesla hasn't explained anything. No mention as to why the counters were implemented in the first place. Only that they will remove them. Now we see Tesla also reduced the power when not in LM. Again no word from Tesla.. only owners providing the information via TMC. We can test power levels etc. And see what changes have been made to our cars ( post purchase ) .
These cars are very expensive purchases. Normally car owners want to know how best to treat their vehicle to keep it running great. Tesla won't tell us. Instead I watched months of drag racing with insane and then ludicrous mode Tesla's. Not a peep from anyone from Tesla warning of the consequences.
Pretend you have hit the end of the warranty period. As stated earlier - you better sell the puppy. How would you drive the car if the warranty were expired? Keep it in Sport Mode until you can sell it? Is this REALLY what Tesla wants us to think?

Please Tesla - now that you sold me one of your best performance cars... and after purchase warn me that driving hard will damage the battery? How then should I drive the car and not damage the battery?

What about the people ( like yourself ) who stayed on 7.1 ? Or those that choose to use LM. They have unrestricted power... they need to time the battery damage such that they get a new battery before the warranty expires.. but not so soon that they end up with a nearly damaged battery at the 8 year mark. Which would mean they would need to replace it soon after, on their own dime.

I am awaiting a phone conversation with my SA on this exact topic.

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

My SA has told me earlier - that I should refer to my owners manual relating to the performance etc.
The MyTesla owners manual is dated for 2016. I don't want to refer to that one. It does not pertain to the car I purchased.
Does anyone have a version of the owners manual for the P90DL dated back in Aug-Sept 2015 time frame? Thanks.

azdryheat · Mar 13, 2017

Walta said:
My SA has told me earlier - that I should refer to my owners manual relating to the performance etc.
The MyTesla owners manual is dated for 2016. I don't want to refer to that one. It does not pertain to the car I purchased.
Does anyone have a version of the owners manual for the P90DL dated back in Aug-Sept 2015 time frame? Thanks.

My original manual was downloaded July 13, 2016, 2 days after I placed my order. No mention of any limits, damage, etc. Tried to upload it, but too big.

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

azdryheat said:
My original manual was downloaded July 13, 2016, 2 days after I placed my order. No mention of any limits, damage, etc. Tried to upload it, but too big.

Thanks for the effort... I will try to attain one via Tesla service. But what you are stating - with regard to no mention of limits etc. is what I remembered.

n2mb_racing · Mar 13, 2017

Nothing relevant:

Choose an acceleration level. Sport is the standard level of acceleration and allows you to
maximize driving range. Choose Insane or Ludicrous (depending on the options available
on your vehicle) to increase peak torque by approximately 60 percent.
If you choose Insane or Ludicrous, additional power is available immediately. However, to
achieve the absolute maximum power (designed for short term use), touch Max Battery
Power, which displays as blue text immediately below the acceleration setting. Max
Battery Power heats the Battery to its ideal operating temperature to ensure access to
100% of available power. Heating the Battery can take over an hour, depending on
environmental conditions and whether or not Model S is being driven. During this time, a
message displays providing you with an approximate wait time. When the additional
power is available, the message indicates that Max Battery Power is READY! When using
Max Battery Power, Model S consumes more energy as it keeps the Battery within an
optimal temperature range. To cancel Max Battery Power at any time, change the
acceleration level to Sport (or touch the button in the Max Battery Mode popup). To
prevent excess and potentially unnecessary energy consumption (for example, you leave
the vehicle and forget to cancel Max Battery Power), Max Battery Power cancels
automatically in three hours, regardless of whether you are still driving or have left the
vehicle.
Note: To support Max Battery Power, the charge level must be 20% or higher. You cannot
initiate Max Battery Power if the charge level is less than 20%. In addition, Max Battery
Power immediately cancels if at any time during its use, the charge level drops below
20%.
Note: Max Battery Power strives to keep the pack within an optimal temperature range. In
addition to heating the Battery, Max Battery Power also cools the battery when necessary
(for example, during aggressive driving scenarios).
Note: Max Battery Power is designed to achieve maximum performance for short term
acceleration and is not intended for daily driving. The tradeoff for the additional power
boost is extra energy consumption and earlier power fade on long aggressive drives. The
Insane or Ludicrous acceleration settings provide a significant increase in performance
even without Max Battery Power. In fact, in normal driving situations, the additional power
that can be achieved using Max Battery Power may not be noticeable.
Note: The Insane or Ludicrous acceleration setting is available only on newer Performance
dual-motor vehicles, depending on date of manufacture and options chosen at time of
purchase.

and

Launch Mode, available on performance dualmotor
vehicles only, provides optimum
acceleration on surfaces with good traction.
Warning: Use Launch Mode only in
appropriate locations where there is no
cross traffic or pedestrians present.
Launch Mode is designed for use on
closed circuit driving courses. It is the
driver’s responsibility to ensure that
driving style and acceleration do not
endanger or inconvenience other road
users.
To Activate Launch Mode
Before activating Launch Mode, it is
recommended that the brakes are slightly
warm by driving for a few minutes and using
the brakes a few times.
1. Set the acceleration level to Insane or
Ludicrous and enable Max Battery Power
(see Controls on page 95).
2. With Model S shifted into Drive and at a
complete stop with the steering wheel
straight, fully press the brake pedal with
your left foot.
3. While still pressing the brake with your left
foot, fully press the accelerator pedal with
your right foot, then release the
accelerator pedal. The instrument panel
displays a message indicating that Launch
Mode is enabled.
4. Within eight seconds, fully press the
accelerator pedal a second time to preload
motor torque, then within four
seconds, release the brake.
When you release the brake, Model S launches
forward.
Note: Launch Mode is not available if Slip Start
has been enabled (i.e. wheels can spin). See
Traction Control on page 56.
Note: You can use Launch Mode immediately
after enabling Max Battery Power. There is no
need to wait until Max Battery Power is in its
READY state.
Limitations
Launch Mode is available only if the ambient
temperature is 37° F (3° C) or warmer.

n2mb_racing · Mar 13, 2017

There's only one performance spec:
Maximum net power* and engine speed of large
motors Performance: 375 kW @ 5950 rpm
Maximum net power* and engine speed of small
motors Performance: 193 kW @ 6100 rpm

*Tested in accordance with ECE R85

brianman · Mar 13, 2017

stopcrazypp said:
Let's do some math first to see how much current each cell pulls.
85kWh/90kWh: 7104 cells, 74 cells parallel
P85D (Insane): 1300A/74 = 17.6A
85kWh/90kWh (Ludicrous/Limiter): 1500A/74 = 20.3A
90kWh v2/v3: 7104 cells, 74 cells parallel, 1600A/74 = 21.6A
100kWh: 8256 cells, 86 cells parallel, 1750A/86 = 20.3A

@JRP3, @wk057, @Ingineer - Do these numbers look about right to you?

It's nice to see this captured so succinctly. Thanks, @stopcrazypp!

stopcrazypp · Mar 13, 2017

brianman said:
@JRP3, @wk057, @Ingineer - Do these numbers look about right to you?

It's nice to see this captured so succinctly. Thanks, @stopcrazypp!

I actually read this article today from Motor Trend that says the latest update for the 2.28 second 0-60 run in a P100D had a peak of 1850A from the battery.
"T= 1.30 SEC
The current flowing out of the battery pack and into the two motors peaks at 1,850 amps."
A Closer Look at the 2017 Tesla Model S P100D's Ludicrous Acceleration Run - Motor Trend

So will have to update the numbers to:
P85D (Insane): 1300A/74 = 17.6A
85kWh/90kWh (Ludicrous/Limiter): 1500A/74 = 20.3A
90kWh v2/v3: 7104 cells, 74 cells parallel, 1600A/74 = 21.6A
100kWh: 8256 cells, 86 cells parallel, 1850A/86 = 21.5A

But either way ~22A peak I mentioned before still seems to be around right.

jerjozwik · Mar 13, 2017

@Walta, battery replacements can be triggered without frequent use of MBP or LM. case in point, my car. ive used LM like twice in the year i have had the car. as in launches not trips. MBP was used maybe 4 times, once back when it did nothing, once well below 80% SoC when it did something, twice not even in the "Ready!" state to data log the car.

also got a basic time frame for my new battery. maybe 2 weeks. which would make time in the shop 3 weeks...

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

n2mb_racing said:
Nothing relevant:

Choose an acceleration level. Sport is the standard level of acceleration and allows you to
maximize driving range. Choose Insane or Ludicrous (depending on the options available
on your vehicle) to increase peak torque by approximately 60 percent.
If you choose Insane or Ludicrous, additional power is available immediately. However, to
achieve the absolute maximum power (designed for short term use), touch Max Battery
Power, which displays as blue text immediately below the acceleration setting. Max
Battery Power heats the Battery to its ideal operating temperature to ensure access to
100% of available power. Heating the Battery can take over an hour, depending on
environmental conditions and whether or not Model S is being driven. During this time, a
message displays providing you with an approximate wait time. When the additional
power is available, the message indicates that Max Battery Power is READY! When using
Max Battery Power, Model S consumes more energy as it keeps the Battery within an
optimal temperature range. To cancel Max Battery Power at any time, change the
acceleration level to Sport (or touch the button in the Max Battery Mode popup). To
prevent excess and potentially unnecessary energy consumption (for example, you leave
the vehicle and forget to cancel Max Battery Power), Max Battery Power cancels
automatically in three hours, regardless of whether you are still driving or have left the
vehicle.
Note: To support Max Battery Power, the charge level must be 20% or higher. You cannot
initiate Max Battery Power if the charge level is less than 20%. In addition, Max Battery
Power immediately cancels if at any time during its use, the charge level drops below
20%.
Note: Max Battery Power strives to keep the pack within an optimal temperature range. In
addition to heating the Battery, Max Battery Power also cools the battery when necessary
(for example, during aggressive driving scenarios).
Note: Max Battery Power is designed to achieve maximum performance for short term
acceleration and is not intended for daily driving. The tradeoff for the additional power
boost is extra energy consumption and earlier power fade on long aggressive drives. The
Insane or Ludicrous acceleration settings provide a significant increase in performance
even without Max Battery Power. In fact, in normal driving situations, the additional power
that can be achieved using Max Battery Power may not be noticeable.
Note: The Insane or Ludicrous acceleration setting is available only on newer Performance
dual-motor vehicles, depending on date of manufacture and options chosen at time of
purchase.

and

Launch Mode, available on performance dualmotor
vehicles only, provides optimum
acceleration on surfaces with good traction.
Warning: Use Launch Mode only in
appropriate locations where there is no
cross traffic or pedestrians present.
Launch Mode is designed for use on
closed circuit driving courses. It is the
driver’s responsibility to ensure that
driving style and acceleration do not
endanger or inconvenience other road
users.
To Activate Launch Mode
Before activating Launch Mode, it is
recommended that the brakes are slightly
warm by driving for a few minutes and using
the brakes a few times.
1. Set the acceleration level to Insane or
Ludicrous and enable Max Battery Power
(see Controls on page 95).
2. With Model S shifted into Drive and at a
complete stop with the steering wheel
straight, fully press the brake pedal with
your left foot.
3. While still pressing the brake with your left
foot, fully press the accelerator pedal with
your right foot, then release the
accelerator pedal. The instrument panel
displays a message indicating that Launch
Mode is enabled.
4. Within eight seconds, fully press the
accelerator pedal a second time to preload
motor torque, then within four
seconds, release the brake.
When you release the brake, Model S launches
forward.
Note: Launch Mode is not available if Slip Start
has been enabled (i.e. wheels can spin). See
Traction Control on page 56.
Note: You can use Launch Mode immediately
after enabling Max Battery Power. There is no
need to wait until Max Battery Power is in its
READY state.
Limitations
Launch Mode is available only if the ambient
temperature is 37° F (3° C) or warmer.

Thanks @n2mb_racing for posting. Though this must be more current, since it contains LM guidance? I was trying to capture the language from the mid 2015 owners manual. Curios how things have morphed. Would be cool to diff the 2015 owners manual with the 2017. Tesla's method of post sale modifications to cover up their battery flaw is rampant even across the owners manual.

n2mb_racing · Mar 13, 2017

Neat article! Almost makes me want a P100D, except for this mess.

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

stopcrazypp said:
I actually read this article today from Motor Trend that says the latest update for the 2.28 second 0-60 run in a P100D had a peak of 1850A from the battery.
"T= 1.30 SEC
The current flowing out of the battery pack and into the two motors peaks at 1,850 amps."
A Closer Look at the 2017 Tesla Model S P100D's Ludicrous Acceleration Run - Motor Trend

So will have to update the numbers to:
P85D (Insane): 1300A/74 = 17.6A
85kWh/90kWh (Ludicrous/Limiter): 1500A/74 = 20.3A
90kWh v2/v3: 7104 cells, 74 cells parallel, 1600A/74 = 21.6A
100kWh: 8256 cells, 86 cells parallel, 1850A/86 = 21.5A

But either way ~22A peak I mentioned before still seems to be around right.

WOW! 1850 !
You could snap someones neck if they weren't ready when you punched it... my buddy's iphone hit him in the face and that was at 1500.

Walta · Mar 13, 2017

jerjozwik said:
@Walta, battery replacements can be triggered without frequent use of MBP or LM. case in point, my car. ive used LM like twice in the year i have had the car. as in launches not trips. MBP was used maybe 4 times, once back when it did nothing, once well below 80% SoC when it did something, twice not even in the "Ready!" state to data log the car.

also got a basic time frame for my new battery. maybe 2 weeks. which would make time in the shop 3 weeks...

@jerjozwik this is scary stuff... what version of battery are you on?

jerjozwik · Mar 13, 2017

pre refresh v2.

Tech_Guy · Mar 13, 2017

jerjozwik said:
also got a basic time frame for my new battery. maybe 2 weeks. which would make time in the shop 3 weeks...

Im surprised they didn't tell you it was safe to drive until the battery arrives... that's what I was told when I got that message.

JRP3 · Mar 13, 2017

brianman said:
@JRP3, @wk057, @Ingineer - Do these numbers look about right to you?

It's nice to see this captured so succinctly. Thanks, @stopcrazypp!

Yes I think his numbers are certainly reasonable.

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

Member

Active Member

Tesla, not TSLA!

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Active Member

Active Member

Burrito Founder

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Member

Active Member

Member

Member

Active Member

ALWAYS IN LUDICROUS MODE! P90D>P100D Upgrade

Hyperactive Member

Similar threads