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Actually, new engines are often validated at the redline for 1M miles equivalent.i attempted to explain the situation to my petrol head co-worker. when i mentioned the whole "no one knows what driving style results in failed packs..." he responded with "well yah, we have 100 years of gasoline tech knowledge to pull from." i said "exactly, pretty much everyone knows not to drive around pegging the redline all day long."
Very good points and questions. We need this info to understand the scope of all this. Could it be we are all riding a warranty time bomb? I am guessing it is only the 1600 amp group. But as unethical as things have progressed? Who knows.
Isn't this the classic bait and switch?
You can't necessarily extrapolate general specs about a chemistry to a specific version of that chemistry. Tesla/Panasonic are not using a generic NCA chemistry. Also momentary high C rates are not the same as continuous.
I would point out that if you expect any car to last well beyond the warranty period you don't drive it balls to the walls all day every day, be it ICE or EV.
Is the Power limitation outside of LM really only impacting the P90DL v3 owners that were doing 1600A?
or if you prefer are we seeing lower than 1500A when pedal mashing on all other non-1600A batteries (P90DL v1, v2, P85DL)?
No, it has limited my P90DL with the v2 battery. I used to get 490 kW, now I only get 465 kW when mashing the pedal. I can get about 485 kW, but only when using launch mode. It is limited to 465 kW at all other times. That means we will only get to use the maximum power very infrequently. I can't find many instances where I have time to set launch mode and rip off a perfect launch, but I have many opportunities to floor it while already rolling.
for reference, on FW 7.1 at 90-95% soc I can get 489 (max battery enabled but not ready), all the time via pedal stomp.
Actually it is not.
The classic bait and switch involves "baiting" a customer to come in for an advertised item at a low price, and then when the customer arrives "switching" that customer to a higher priced item, saying the advertised item is not available.
I obviously do not condone Tesla's actions here, but it is not the "classic bait and switch."
Actually, looking again:Is that 485kW with 100% SoC, Max Battery Ready, and Launch Mode?
How is it without MB?
And then how is just Ludicrous?
The same for me but I am a bit worried about a sudden battery failure leaving me on the side of the road while on a trip. Eventually I would like to upgrade.
The same for me but I am a bit worried about a sudden battery failure leaving me on the side of the road while on a trip. Eventually I would like to upgrade.
I beg to differ, check my signature ...but my buy timing might have been somewhat unique.
Since "Countergate Part 2/LM only" started, I don't remember reading about other P85DL owners attempt to see if Power is limited below 1500A without LM. I can't try much here in the current weather, by the time the battery reaches Max Heat, SOC will be well below 90%!
So I won't be able to contribute for another couple of months which only makes me even more curious!
Is the Power limitation outside of LM really only impacting the P90DL v3 owners that were doing 1600A?
or if you prefer are we seeing lower than 1500A when pedal mashing on all other non-1600A batteries (P90DL v1, v2, P85DL)?
Wondering if they just isolated the P90DL v3 owners a little more than before with this latest change...
This could also imply that owning a PxxDL outside warranty might be ok if it never was able to reach 1600A?
If bond wires are the problem, then I don't think it will be a sudden failure. My guess is exponential failure, where it gets worse and worse quickly, but not instantly. I think there will be dash warnings before it fails.
Actually, looking again:
459 kW max with MB at 97% SOC and no launch mode (may not have been fully warmed up?)
480 kW max on average (one peak to 483 kW) with MBR and Launch Mode at 93-95% SOC.
465 kW max with MBR and no launch mode at 93-95% SOC
I'm not sure if I did any without MB turned on. I'm not sure what you mean by just ludicrous. Wouldn't that be the same as without MB? Or do you mean cold battery?
Previously, I would get 485 - 490 kW with MBR, with or without launch mode. I did back to back runs with and without launch mode and they were the same, +/- 1 kW.
I don't have data higher since it is hard to get to a place to test it without losing ~5%.
I'll do another run once my CAN cable gets here...
Edit: Graph of power loss below vs. software version.View attachment 218100
In 7.1:
Ludi was 465
MB meant an immediate 20kW power increase
MBR added an additional 7-10kW
Launch Mode did nothing additional
Let's do some math first to see how much current each cell pulls.This is a good point and question. Is it that 1600A is just too much draw from these batteries? If such is the case, then wouldn't 1750A be too much on the 100kWh batteries as well?
I did some digging. I'm not claiming to know the math well enough but there are some interesting thoughts here. Tesla uses NCA batteries in their packs. These NCA batteries are well suited for capacity and cycle life. Something they are apparently not known for is high amp draw. Based on the following sites (SITE 1 - SITE 2) The C rating for these type of batteries hovers right around 1C. As far as batteries go, that's not very good. So, how much stress are we putting on out 90kWh packs at 1600A? If I did my math right it should be just north of 7C. That's 7x the rated amp draw. If you want to kill a Li-Ion battery, the fastest way to do so, short of physical damage, is to draw too much power all at once.
If this is true then it's not cooling or wire fuses. It's the Cells themselves giving up the ghost. This also means the problem has no real fix beyond staying away from 1600A.
thoughts?