Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[hill]

........snip........... I thought it was basically agreed that Model Ss are lousy track cars because of how quickly they get hot and limit power. Has Electric GT made modifications to cool the parts that get hot and result in power limiting?

Didn't hurt the 800lbs lightened P90D that ran Pikes Peak 6 months ago or so;

Not bad for ANY company car that's been in existence such a few amount of years. Of course, even 4,000' BELOW the summit, the warmest average summer temps are ~40 ̊ fahrenheit in the morning - & 70 ̊ by mid day. Not exactly indy 500 track temps when you're quickly above the snow line. Few more years, the P100D might just knock off a few more records.
.

 

[bhzmark]

Really disappointed in the Electrek coverage which is nothing other than a quick rehash of this thread. I expected more of fred on this topic.

Maybe those rare journalism standards are causing him to wait until he has credible information to report instead of just publishing FUD.

 

[NikeWings]

Thank you. While late to the party you quickly share useful relevant information. You are a breath of fresh air to this smoke blowing thread.
So one data point is one possibly limited P85DL has ~1k Launch Mode launches.
Another possibly limited P90DL has still unknown number of Launch Mode events.

I don't understand the "smoke blowing" part of your comment.
Are you questioning the existence of the issue or its severity or its likelihood or what? We'd all like it to be an April fools joke but there is some compelling data including acknowledgement by certain Tesla employees. (Not that they've always been reliable)

 

[bhzmark]

I don't understand the "smoke blowing" part of your comment.
Are you questioning the existence of the issue or its severity or its likelihood or what? We'd all like it to be an April fools joke but there is some compelling data.

Hostman gave data. Tesla and hacker sources seem to agree on existence of counters, but not their limits or effects or even what exactly they count. All else is FUD and inconsistent or vague messaging from Tesla.

More data needed before pitchforks and jihad.

 

[NikeWings]

Hostman gave data. Tesla sources seem to agree on existence of counters, but not their limits or effects or even what exactly they count. All else is FUD and inconsistent or vague messaging from Tesla.

More data before pitchforks and jihad.

Understood. I've requested specifics of Tesla to better understand it all myself. No idea whether I'll be enlightened, but I agree with the need to know more.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am all for sciencing the s**t out of this. In the meanwhile I must add, we also have Tesla saying @Tech_Guy's power loss is due to the counters. We know that, unless we assume @Tech_Guy told a lie.

Is it theoretically possible Tesla's reading of the logs is wrong/incomplete (now there's a topic...), sure it is. Is it possible @Tech_Guy lies or misunderstood? Theoretically, of course.

But at the moment the latest word we know of, from Tesla, regarding @Tech_Guy's 100 hp P90DL power loss is: counters.

100 hp power loss is no longer about downgrading 10.8 to 10.9 quarter mile. As said, it is about degrading a P90DL below Insane mode.

This thread started out with hopeful notions that any such power limiter would be hardly noticeable, but I still maintain my question: how could it be. If you run the wire bonds (or whatnot) to a limit on full, how could a very small, incremental hp decrease suddenly make enough difference. Nothing so far suggests that the power limiter would be insignificant, except maybe wishful thinking.

Mind you, I'm not saying the response to the counters is necessarily 100 hp. That is speculative. I am just adding to the raw data: Right or wrong, so far we have data that Tesla does say it is related to the counters and have refused/passed on additional chances to add to/change that information to @Tech_Guy.

The same staff also issued an early written statement to Techguy that said that the P100D is not affected and suggested only launch control triggers the counters. Other recent statements from Tesla seems to conflict with that (and we know by know not only launch control triggers it).

 

[AWDtsla]

If Tesla states "working as designed" then they don't have to replace anything under warranty. Circling the wagons.

 

[AWDtsla]

100 hp power loss is no longer about downgrading 10.8 to 10.9 quarter mile. As said, it is about degrading a P90DL below Insane mode.

This thread started out with hopeful notions that any such power limiter would be hardly noticeable, but I still maintain my question: how could it be. If you run the wire bonds (or whatnot) to a limit on full, how could a very small, incremental hp decrease suddenly make enough difference. Nothing so far suggests that the power limiter would be insignificant, except maybe wishful thinking.

Mind you, I'm not saying the response to the counters is necessarily 100 hp. That is speculative. I am just adding to the raw data: Right or wrong, so far we have data that Tesla does say it is related to the counters and have refused/passed on additional chances to add to/change that information to @Tech_Guy.

Below insane mode? Holy crap. Let me presume for a minute that that isn't true. The real story here isn't just the power limiting, its current limiting. It means you will have noticeable drop in usable torque, at any SoC, as well as lower 0-60 times. Ludicrous wasn't just buying a few more HP, it was buying torque over the whole SoC range.

 

[hmmm]

(and we know by know not only launch control triggers it).

I'm trying to put this moving puzzle together...has the above been confirmed?

 

[hmmm]

Correct! Also apparently it's counting not just launch mode but also launches from a stop in max battery mode as well as just in ludicrous mode all those count towards a limit

Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but who was able to gather data to support this?

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm trying to put this moving puzzle together...has the above been confirmed?

It's from this post:
Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

Tesla never officially confirmed, but then their wording on their website suggests that it doesn't apply only to launch control

Performance versions of the Model S and Model X are high-performance vehicles. As with other vehicles, continuous high-performance driving will stress the vehicle's components and may result in premature wear or failure. To help protect the performance and longevity of the powertrain, Performance versions of the Model S and Model X continually monitor the condition of various components and may employ limiting controls to optimize the overall driving and ownership experience.

Order a Tesla Model S | Tesla

Logically, if the issue are wire bonds on the battery, it doesn't make sense to limit counters only to launch control.

Of course so far there is no empirical confirmation yet that power reduction has happened to someone that rarely uses launch control. Both people that so far have claimed power loss on this thread have used launch control more than average.

 

[smac]

Given nearly every ludicrous pack will likely become limited within the warranty period, that's all of them.

So I asked this much earlier in this thread but no one answered. Does anyone know how many ludicrous models have been sold? 20,000 cars @ $10,000 = $200 million

No idea overall, Tesla know their product mix, but remain tight lipped. Now here in the UK we can discover (or at least get a good handle on) the figures:

Search results for 'tesla' - How Many Left?

Broadly speaking this suggests 25% small battery cars, 50% large battery cars, 25% P cars.

Of those P cars we don't know how many have Ludicrous, and despite 3 being listed as a separate line item, this data is simply whatever the DS decided to put on the form at the time of first vehicle registration (and I know of more than 3 owners of UK P90DL's). My gut tells me at least 1/2 PD's are PDL's. All of which gives us a rough estimate of 10-20% if UK mirrors other markets, then your 20,000 sounds a reasonable guess.

Maybe a more important issue is if people feel they were choosing between a 90D and a P90DL. In that case the additional revenue per car is a lot higher.

 

[hmmm]

It's from this post:
Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

Tesla never officially confirmed, but then their wording on their website suggests that it doesn't apply only to launch control

Order a Tesla Model S | Tesla

Logically, if the issue are wire bonds on the battery, it doesn't make sense to limit counters only to launch control.

Of course so far there is no empirical confirmation yet that power reduction has happened to someone that rarely uses launch control. Both people that so far have claimed power loss on this thread have used launch control more than average.

Thank you for pointing me to the key posts, much appreciated. I have an email into my SC to see what data I can get for my car.

 

[xborg]

No idea overall, Tesla know their product mix, but remain tight lipped. Now here in the UK we can discover (or at least get a good handle on) the figures:

Search results for 'tesla' - How Many Left?

Broadly speaking this suggests 25% small battery cars, 50% large battery cars, 25% P cars.

Of those P cars we don't know how many have Ludicrous, and despite 3 being listed as a separate line item, this data is simply whatever the DS decided to put on the form at the time of first vehicle registration (and I know of more than 3 owners of UK P90DL's). My gut tells me at least 1/2 PD's are PDL's. All of which gives us a rough estimate of 10-20% if UK mirrors other markets, then your 20,000 sounds a reasonable guess.

Maybe a more important issue is if people feel they were choosing between a 90D and a P90DL. In that case the additional revenue per car is a lot higher.

I don't trust this data. Many DSs have put p85d and p90ds without even P part. I can imagine quarter of these 90Ds are actually P90Ds.

 

[smac]

I don't trust this data. Many DSs have put p85d and p90ds without even P part. I can imagine quarter of these 90Ds are actually P90Ds.

Possibly, Tesla UK are not the most organised bunch. My V5 shows an 85kWh car despite it being a 60

Saying that the cars I have bumped into at SpC's have somewhat born out the ratio. Of course again this maybe a flawed data point (and very limited one as I've not used SpC's much).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Maybe those rare journalism standards are causing him to wait until he has credible information to report instead of just publishing FUD.

At the moment Electrek is still publishing obsoleted, wrong information.

@Tech_Guy's source at Tesla, whom Electrek's @FredLambert quotes as a main quote/part of their story, changed their message significantly.

At the very least they could post an update on that - I would say journalism standards would suggest as much.

 

[lolachampcar]

For people joining this thread looking for "what we know"
I can not update an original post on this forum so I started one on TM where I have tired to put a link to every first person (the actual owner) post about what Tesla has told them directly. This will let you read about (most of) the input to this thread.
So when does (or how long does it take for) a PxxxD to become more like a SxxxD? | Tesla Motors

I'll try to repeat this post every now and then to make it easier for those new to this thread to get a handle on what is known.

I'll also belabor another point I've made in the past.
Beware folks. The counters we are discussing are the only ones we know of. There are others that will likely come out in the future if they are not already being discussed on other threads (that I have missed). I bring this up to make a point about how big a stake Tesla has in this game. Success attacking this effort will ripple into others so do not expect them to lay down or play nice.

 

[JRP3]

All else is FUD and inconsistent or vague messaging from Tesla.

More data needed before pitchforks and jihad.

The fact that all we've heard from Tesla is inconsistent and vague messaging is why "pitchforks and jihad" are occurring. Tesla is not handling this appropriately.

 

[Andyw2100]

The fact that all we've heard from Tesla is inconsistent and vague messaging is why "pitchforks and jihad" are occurring. Tesla is not handling this appropriately.

Or perhaps they are handling this completely appropriately for a company caught with its pants down, trying to avoid a class-action lawsuit. Time will tell.

They are certainly not handling it appropriately from a customer service standpoint, though.

 

[scaesare]

...appropriately...