I think that was Roadster. And TEG will probably chime in to remind me that it was a myth or something.
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We are discussing the motor power ratings of individual motors, yes.
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Here's an old post claiming they are different: Motor-battery combo performance differences S60, S85, and P85. Later posts say they are not. I think you are right and they are not different. Does that mean the motor power figure includes the inverter?
The first post in that thread is interesting too, directly talks about thoeretical motor capabilities (motor power) and actual.
@dsm (Since he's clearly reading this thread...)
As I understand it, one of the arguments is "People should have done the research so that they understand what they're buying, etc." I think it's abundantly clear that (1) there is room for confusion about what the P85D and P90D products offer, (2) there are a lot of now informed people on this subject, (3) if Tesla doesn't update/add-to the wording there will be more buyers confused going forward, and (4) that could be improved but it is possible Tesla won't take action.
Starting a new thread is probably a bad idea. Putting it in this thread is probably a bad idea. So, how about this proposal:
How do you feel about a Wiki page that captures "what we think we know" about the Model S w/r/t this 691hp drama? What I'm thinking is something that lays it all out there. I'd love to be able to point to 1 page that is readable by non-experts and educates them on the subject quickly and correctly.
I'm thinking a format that starts with:
(1) What Tesla publicly stated
(2) (Maybe) What Tesla previously publicly stated
(3) Links to threads that have research (I'm talking the REST data, vbox, charts, etc.)
(4) "Curated" text that captures our collective current understanding
By "curated" I mean we could pick a handful of people to act as a committee to write the language.
I think it would be a good first step in putting this topic to bed, or at least finding common ground and focusing future discussion.
As I understand it, one of the arguments is "People should have done the research so that they understand what they're buying, etc." I think it's abundantly clear that (1) there is room for confusion about what the P85D and P90D products offer, (2) there are a lot of now informed people on this subject, (3) if Tesla doesn't update/add-to the wording there will be more buyers confused going forward, and (4) that could be improved but it is possible Tesla won't take action.
Starting a new thread is probably a bad idea. Putting it in this thread is probably a bad idea. So, how about this proposal:
How do you feel about a Wiki page that captures "what we think we know" about the Model S w/r/t this 691hp drama? What I'm thinking is something that lays it all out there. I'd love to be able to point to 1 page that is readable by non-experts and educates them on the subject quickly and correctly.
I'm thinking a format that starts with:
(1) What Tesla publicly stated
(2) (Maybe) What Tesla previously publicly stated
(3) Links to threads that have research (I'm talking the REST data, vbox, charts, etc.)
(4) "Curated" text that captures our collective current understanding
By "curated" I mean we could pick a handful of people to act as a committee to write the language.
I think it would be a good first step in putting this topic to bed, or at least finding common ground and focusing future discussion.
I'm not certain we know this for the most recent P85D vehicles. It's completely possible (and perhaps likely) that when they first announced P90D they already had P85D drive units coming off the line that were better/different than previous P85D drive units.
I'm not trying to suggest that people should start tracking VINs and such. I'm just saying that we don't know for certain one way or another, so we probably shouldn't start with that assumption.
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Read post 13.
Motor-battery combo performance differences S60, S85, and P85 - Page 2
Hah, it's like I read his post before I posted earlier. (But I didn't...no really... well, at least not in 2015.)
No I do not. That is why I am asking. If they have the same motors and inverters between the P85D and the P90DL where does the extra 70 +motor HP come from. I thought 691 HP was the MAX motor Hp rating for the motors. That's why they were advertised.
What are you talking about? I have a P85D with an advertised 691 HP motor rating which the battery/fuse system cannot satisfy. So I upgrade the fuse & software for $10k and suddenly I have 761 HP motor power with all the same motor hardware ? How is that possible?
That's not what I was saying. I lost track of when P90D was launched, but let's say May.
I was suggesting that a May P85D drive unit pair might have P90D specs (762) while an April P85D drive unit pair has P85D specs (691). Tesla has done stuff like this before -- both for features (Supercharging, Autopilot sensors, etc.) and spendy hardware ("40/60" had 60 kWh batteries that were software limited to 40 usable).
Furthermore, they might do like chip manufacturers do -- build P90D (762) drive units exclusively, test them, and software limit (691) the "weak ones".
There's all kinds of "it's not that simple" stuff that comes into play when you're trying to minimize costs, optimize throughput, maximize profit margins, etc.
That cannot be possible. The current P85D is still Advertised as 691 HP motor Power. It doesn't actually produce that 691 HP. It is not limited to the 691 HP power. It is limited to 550 HP.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
"Motor power," like the ECE R85, includes the motor controller and inverters. This would be similar to how crate motors are sold with ECUs attached. When you keep that in mind the numbers are pretty straightforward.
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Simple: they have different software. The 70D/85D motors went from 188hp "motor power" to 259 hp "motor power" just with a software update.
The number more accurately is the power of the motors inclusive of the motor controllers and inverters. That is how ECE R85 measures things. That means any software updates on the motor controller will change the motor power rating.
What do you mean? Spell it out.
Where does this extra 70 HP motor power come from when the motor hardware Is identical to the P85D and it is rated at 691 max Hp motor power all the while putting out 550 HP.
If the upgrades produce an extra 70 Hp then the P90DL should be advertised as 550 HP + 70 HP=620 Hp with still the rated 691 HP MOTOR POWER.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
He's saying the motor hardware may not be identical between a P85D from back when they were advertising the 691 hp number and a P90DL or P85D rolling out of the factory now.
Like with the battery pack (which has gone through many revisions), it would be no surprise for Tesla to make continual changes to the motor (I believe from the motor noise issue threads they have different motor part numbers for a while already).
However, as I put it, the simpler explanation is because like ECE R85, the "motor power" includes the motor controller/inverter.
You clearly don't understand how this tax credit works. This is not a deduction. You get to take the credit regardless of whether you itemized or took the standard deduction as long as you have *any* tax liability after that. If you have more than $7500 after your deductions, you get to take the entire amount otherwise it's whatever you have left under $7500.
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But apparently you didn't.
Soolim
Member
Are you sure of that ECE R85 definition for "motor power" including the drive controller?
I understand and prrfectly how some of you are saying that PERHAPS the motors are different, perhaps the software is brings out more HP from the motors but let's get a few things straight.
The P85D motor is RATED at MAXIMUM 691 HP motor power. It's a rating similar to the rating of a lightbulb. This is supposedly how they rate electrical motors. This rating is like a maximum output CAPABILITY and LIMITATION rating of the physical motors themselves, provided the the rest of the system could feed this motor. But the system cannot. And therefore the actual motor OUTPUT is only 550 HP. Thus the controversy.
My car is equipped & Advertised with this motor CAPABILITY/LIMITATION.
Tesla says they will change my fuse and software and VOILA my motor now magically has a maximum capability/limitation rating of 762 HP motor power in my P85DL yet it really does not actually produce this output, it's probably more around 600 actual HP.
My point is the motor's physical maximum CAPABILITY/LIMITATIONS have not changed at all and this is how they rate these electrical motors. It's CAPABILITY & LIMITS remain the same and are constrained by the rest of the system. So how does my P85D motor change its rating to 762 HP motor power by changing a couple of items in the system.
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