Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
And for a customer who has no knowledge of electric propulsion and did not read your speculative post at TMC, how would that customer have reached the same conclusion simply by reading the information offered by Tesla?


Same way a customer knows that ICE horsepower is only accurate for a small narrow torque band at sea level and that the 0-60 times in the US are assuming a 1 foot rollout.

Same way a customer knows that a gas car needs gas in order to propel itself.

Same way a customer knows that cell phone service doesn't work well in basements.

Same way a customer knows how much money a computer costs yearly in electricity costs.

Same way a customer knows that when endangered eagles nest in cell phone towers, that cell site will be shut down and your service will be impacted temporarily. (No, I'm not even kidding about this).

None of these facts are mentioned with *any* business in the US. If you wanted to know absolutely everything about every product ever produced, you'd have to read a several thousand page document for even buying something like a cell phone.

Please tell me how this situation is any different than any of the above situations.

What's wrong with Tesla updating its specs to the following:


  • 691 HP combined motor power (550 HP peak output)
  • 0-60 in 3.2s (3.6s w/o 1-foot roll out)

This way, they can tell both stories. There will be some blowback from existing P85D owners, but isn't it better to deal with a small number today than a larger number tomorrow?


Why don't you get all of the other car manufacturers to properly advertise their 0-60 times without rollout, then, or their horsepower at various torque bands and altitudes? Why does a car dealer in Colorado get to advertise the same horsepower and 0-60 times the same as someone in southern Florida when the Florida car will perform a good bit better?

This is an electric car witch hunt, fueled by ignorance over how both ICE and EVs work in general. Nothing more, nothing less. I feel like I'm in the comments section of the Wall Street Journal...
 
Last edited:

Please tell me how this situation is any different than any of the above situations.

I'll tell you how it is different.

Tesla recognized that the way they'd be presenting the number would be confusing to their potential customers. They started work on an explanation for the website that would clear up that confusion. We don't know exactly when Tesla started working on that explanation, but by the time David Noland wrote his article on October 17, 2014 they were already working on it.

Tesla chose to stop working on the explanation. There was nothing official published by Tesla until the JB Straubel blog post a couple of weeks ago, almost a year later.

That makes this situation very different from the ones you listed.
 


Same way a customer knows that ICE horsepower is only accurate for a small narrow torque band at sea level and that the 0-60 times in the US are assuming a 1 foot rollout.

Same way a customer knows that a gas car needs gas in order to propel itself.

Same way a customer knows that cell phone service doesn't work well in basements.

Same way a customer knows how much money a computer costs yearly in electricity costs.

Same way a customer knows that when endangered eagles nest in cell phone towers, that cell site will be shut down and your service will be impacted temporarily. (No, I'm not even kidding about this).

None of these facts are mentioned with *any* business in the US. If you wanted to know absolutely everything about every product ever produced, you'd have to read a several thousand page document for even buying something like a cell phone.

Please tell me how this situation is any different than any of the above situations.



Why don't you get all of the other car manufacturers to properly advertise their 0-60 times without rollout, then, or their horsepower at various torque bands and altitudes? Why does a car dealer in Colorado get to advertise the same horsepower and 0-60 times the same as someone in southern Florida when the Florida car will perform a good bit better?

This is an electric car witch hunt, fueled by ignorance over how both ICE and EVs work in general. Nothing more, nothing less. I feel like I'm in the comments section of the Wall Street Journal...


I am not sure if I get the gist of your post and your examples are somewhat obtuse, nonsensical, and are poor analogy's or not relevant.

The suggestion given below are basic metrics and are certainly more transparent than what we have so far. So let's ask again...

"What's wrong with Tesla updating its specs to the following":



  • 691 HP combined motor power (550 HP peak output)
  • 0-60 in 3.2s (3.6s w/o 1-foot roll out)
 
I am not sure if I get the gist of your post and your examples are somewhat obtuse, nonsensical, and are poor analogy's or not relevant.

The suggestion given below are basic metrics and are certainly more transparent than what we have so far. So let's ask again...

"What's wrong with Tesla updating its specs to the following":

I believe his point is along the lines of: buyer beware and do due diligence if something specific is important to you, you learn about life, stuff, and new things by living it and them, and sometimes poo happens and it's usually not the end of the world.
 
I'll tell you how it is different.

Tesla recognized that the way they'd be presenting the number would be confusing to their potential customers. They started work on an explanation for the website that would clear up that confusion. We don't know exactly when Tesla started working on that explanation, but by the time David Noland wrote his article on October 17, 2014 they were already working on it.

Tesla chose to stop working on the explanation. There was nothing official published by Tesla until the JB Straubel blog post a couple of weeks ago, almost a year later.

That makes this situation very different from the ones you listed.

So you're saying the only reason that the Tesla situation is different, is that Tesla is the only example from the above which was kind enough to post a response to customers who were ignorant about a specific aspect of their product? Somehow Tesla trying to educate those who don't have knowledge on the subject somehow makes them the bad people?

That doesn't even change anything. The cell phone companies still won't disclose which cell sites can or will be affected by seasonal changes in signal strength. Retailers still aren't listing the annual electricity costs of a computer. Gas car companies still advertise assuming 0-60 with 1 foot rollouts and hp levels at peak torque levels at sea level only.

Welcome to being a consumer. Educating yourself is a responsibility of being a consumer past what is legally required (which it is not in this case and is standard practice among all US automotive producers/advertisements). If you don't do your research, then there's no excuse for being subject to the consequences. It's no different than why Amazon and other retailers have "Ask a question about this product!" sections. It's no different than how you'll see so many people on TMC ask questions about the car before actually buying it. This literally impacts each and every single product you can possibly buy as a consumer, from fast food to furniture, to all technology to paper clips.

It's not Tesla's responsibility to draft a 2300 page document detailing every tiny little detail on their vehicles. Why stop at being forced to post methodology testing for 0-60? Why not reveal full methodology for metallurgical production of the aluminum on the body? Why not reveal the source code used for the autopilot simulations to exactly quantify how the TACC system works in all situations?

I get it, you're unhappy about the car for some reason. Before I bought my own EV, I had thought that it supported bluetooth media audio--I was wrong. Is it Nissan's fault I bought the wrong trim level? Nope. It's my fault for not asking / assuming / not doing my research that bluetooth calling didn't implicate the existence of bluetooth audio support.

It seems an easier solution--the solution used by every single business out there in the world--is that the most common and important aspects of a product or service are covered, and if more information is required then you simply ask.

It's just the risk and responsibility of the consumer.

I am not sure if I get the gist of your post and your examples are somewhat obtuse, nonsensical, and are poor analogy's or not relevant.

The suggestion given below are basic metrics and are certainly more transparent than what we have so far. So let's ask again...


Why are they obtuse, nonsensical, or a poor analogy? Are they poor because you, personally, already know the answer to those questions? Are they poor because--like the cell phone example--it does not apply to you personally?

I can assure you each and every fact is true, including the fact that endangered eagle nesting can indeed cause rural cell phone customers to completely lose cell service at their home over the period of a few months. You might scoff at that as pointless, but this very specific situation was once a part of my professional work-life and it negatively impacted thousands of customers annually, all of whom continued to pay full price for their degraded service.
"What's wrong with Tesla updating its specs to the following":




  • 691 HP combined motor power (550 HP peak output)
  • 0-60 in 3.2s (3.6s w/o 1-foot roll out)
There's nothing wrong with them updating to these specs; however, they will lose a competitive advantage as all other performance automakers in the US will not specify the conditions of peak horsepower, nor the fact that 0-60 times include a rollout.

It's no different than how every cell phone provider nowadays is advertising service, but leaves out device/equipment costs. The carriers who initially continued to advertise with equipment costs included, all of a sudden seemed much more expensive than those who legally advertised service costs separately. Thus, all cell phone carriers in the US now advertise without including equipment costs. This is all public information--feel free to look up historical data on subscription retention v. when the advertising campaigns changed for the four major US carriers. It's a competitive disadvantage for Telsa to include those disclosures, because customers will think Tesla's cars are slower than they actually are (because competitors' cars would still have the older, faster numbers). If you're unhappy with it then write a letter to your lawmaker in Washington D.C. to change it.
 
Last edited:
So you're saying the only reason that the Tesla situation is different, is that Tesla is the only example from the above which was kind enough to post a response to customers who were ignorant about a specific aspect of their product? Somehow Tesla trying to educate those who don't have knowledge on the subject somehow makes them the bad people?

I'm saying the difference is that Tesla realized people were likely to be misled by the numbers they were posting, planned to explain them to prevent that, and then decided not to, allowing the customers to be misled.

As others have pointed out, there was no reasonable way someone could have read the Tesla 691 Motor HP figure and thought it meant anything other than 691 HP at the motors.

If this goes to court I expect that will be the easiest part of the case to prove. It may be more difficult to prove intent on Tesla's part, but now that we know they started working on this explanation and stopped, I think it just became a whole lot easier.

What is 100% clear is that a whole lot of customers trust Tesla a whole lot less than they used to.
 
I believe his point is along the lines of: buyer beware and do due diligence if something specific is important to you, you learn about life, stuff, and new things by living it and them, and sometimes poo happens and it's usually not the end of the world.

So bring a lawyer and engineer every time I want to purchase from Tesla, ok. What happen to doing honest business? I'm tired of hearing all these excuses, another company is doing that so its ok tesla does it too...really?
 
So let's ask again...

"What's wrong with Tesla updating its specs to the following":


  • 691 HP combined motor power (550 HP peak output)
  • 0-60 in 3.2s (3.6s w/o 1-foot roll out)

The main thing wrong with it is that Tesla never asked for opinions on updating its specs. So it's an exercise in futility.

Tesla provided an explanation for how it arrived at its specs. The fact that some people do not like the explanation, and are irritated by it, does not make it wrong. I also find it odd to tell a company to sell itself short just to satisfy a relatively small, but vocal, group. Sorry but capitalism rarely caters to minorities. It caters to the market as a whole, which in Tesla's case is doing just fine, without the opinions being offered here.
 
Wrong. I've watched the REST go from 325 to 410 and it literally moves by 1 pixel at that scale. At lower power levels where the logarithmic side of the scale is expanded, you can tell 29KW from 30KW, but at the higher end, you can't tell 350KW to 400KW. The needle is in pretty much the same spot.
That's how logarithmic gauges work. And all gauges need some sort of low pass filter in order to be readable, whether FIR filters or moving averages, and they all add latency. The point still stands. The car tells you how much power it's making, at some point in the powertrain.
 
So bring a lawyer and engineer every time I want to purchase from Tesla, ok. What happen to doing honest business? I'm tired of hearing all these excuses, another company is doing that so its ok tesla does it too...really?

Name me a large, successful business that doesn't follow industry marketing standards or industry practices and sees no negative impact.

What Tesla is doing is no different than how the smart electric drive is able to advertise itself as cost $12,500, despite having a base MSRP of $25,000.

Regarding bringing a lawyer and an engineer, that's just a fact of every day life. Every EV maker out there advertises the $7500 tax credit right on the front page, and usually in the biggest font. I guarantee most people would need to consult the IRS or a tax preparation service to find the answer to that question (most do not qualify for the full $7500). Every food you consume can potentially have deleterious long-term health effects, especially for weight levels and diabetes risk--there's usually a huge health difference between those that stick to a nutritionist-approved diet, versus those that simply stick to nutrition labels to determine what to eat.

Why single out Tesla, specifically? Just because they're a new company doesn't mean they're subject to the same regulatory environment for the 100+ year ICE history. Write to your lawmaker if you find this distressing, and while you're at it please have lawmakers include scientific journals on the health effects of food in your grocery store, force customers to learn IRS tax code related to EV credits, and force customers to understand how an EVSE install works too.
 
Until they get sued.

You think a lawsuit will change things? Litigation doesn't work that way. Anyone can sue over anything. Tesla will file a response based on its published explanation if it is sued and nothing will change. Tesla won't be running scared simply by being sued, and change its specs, as you seem to think. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

If you had posted "Until they get a judgment against them" then I'd say good luck on that one. It won't happen. Tesla will win it easily, likely on a Summary Trial basis. There's a very broad spectrum when it comes to advertising specs and provided you come anywhere within the spectrum, the case will be doomed for failure. Remember, it's not the government suing over false advertising, but purchasers saying they were mislead. Look up "caveat emptor" (buyer beware). It's a principle of law that makes these types of cases very difficult to win.

You're not aware of the reality of today's litigious world if you think the filing of a lawsuit will change anything. And the risk of costs, not only your own but paying Tesla's costs if (or rather when) you lose, means a lawsuit is unlikely to change things. The vast majority of lawsuits filed never see a courtroom, mostly due to the prohibitive costs involved in pursuing cases to trial.
 
You think a lawsuit will change things? Litigation doesn't work that way. Anyone can sue over anything. Tesla will file a response based on its published explanation if it is sued and nothing will change. Tesla won't be running scared simply by being sued, and change its specs, as you have seem to think. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

If you had posted "Until they get a judgment against them" then I'd say good luck on that one. It won't happen. Tesla will win it easily, likely on a Summary Trial basis. There's a very broad spectrum when it comes to advertising specs and provided you come anywhere within the spectrum, the case will be doomed for failure. Remember, it's not the government suing over false advertising, but purchasers saying they were mislead. Look up "caveat emptor" (buyer beware). It's a principle of law that makes these types of cases very difficult to win.

You're not aware of the reality of today's litigious world if you think the filing of a lawsuit will change anything. And the risk of costs, not only your own but paying Tesla's costs if (or rather when) you lose, means a lawsuit is unlikely to change things. The vast majority of lawsuits filed never see a courtroom, mostly due to the prohibitive costs involved in pursuing cases to trial.

If Tesla gets sued in some sort of major class action suit over this, it will be all over the news. Tesla will be hurt whether they defend the suit successfully or not.

They put themselves in this situation, and there was no reason for it.
 
Every EV maker out there advertises the $7500 tax credit right on the front page, and usually in the biggest font. I guarantee most people would need to consult the IRS or a tax preparation service to find the answer to that question (most do not qualify for the full $7500).

Who exactly is *most*? If you can afford a Tesla and don't have an AGI high enough to get the credit, then you really don't need it. How are you going to get money back from the government if you don't actually earn any income on the books?

As far as car models the only well-known car that can't get to 7500 is the i8, and no one is buying those. BOTH your cars qualify for $7500.

Qualified Vehicles Acquired after 12-31-2009

The amount of EV FUD here is too damn high.
 
Name me a large, successful business that doesn't follow industry marketing standards or industry practices and sees no negative impact.

What Tesla is doing is no different than how the smart electric drive is able to advertise itself as cost $12,500, despite having a base MSRP of $25,000.

Regarding bringing a lawyer and an engineer, that's just a fact of every day life. Every EV maker out there advertises the $7500 tax credit right on the front page, and usually in the biggest font. I guarantee most people would need to consult the IRS or a tax preparation service to find the answer to that question (most do not qualify for the full $7500). Every food you consume can potentially have deleterious long-term health effects, especially for weight levels and diabetes risk--there's usually a huge health difference between those that stick to a nutritionist-approved diet, versus those that simply stick to nutrition labels to determine what to eat.

Why single out Tesla, specifically? Just because they're a new company doesn't mean they're subject to the same regulatory environment for the 100+ year ICE history. Write to your lawmaker if you find this distressing, and while you're at it please have lawmakers include scientific journals on the health effects of food in your grocery store, force customers to learn IRS tax code related to EV credits, and force customers to understand how an EVSE install works too.

Actually there is a huge difference. Tesla does the same thing as other EV company on their pricing, they even subtract gas saving from their price, I'm ok with that, you know why? Because they actually EXPLAIN it. Would you be ok with it if they did not explain their pricing and charge you full price when you go pick up the car?

You know what's funny? I did not know about tax credit for EV before I start purchasing Tesla, it's my first look into EV world, but I didn't need to ask IRS or tax professional to understand it, you know why? Because Tesla is happy to put that right in our face on the ordering page. So tesla is willing to explaining stuff that will benefit them but not explaining hp motor power, not explaining use of rollout on one model and not all others, that's shady.

i don't think we are singling out Tesla because it's a new company, it's because we BOUGHT a tesla, not leaf, not volt not Chevy, not future Tesla owner, we are tesla owner and we didn't get what we paid for.
 
If Tesla gets sued in some sort of major class action suit over this, it will be all over the news. Tesla will be hurt whether they defend the suit successfully or not.

They put themselves in this situation, and there was no reason for it.

It won't be all over the news. Of course, it will be carried by the major news outlets but not as headline news and most people won't care enough about it to even take note of it. Those who do will likely roll their eyes at the facts (since both sides will be presented) and the comments sections will likely be filled with Tesla supporters bashing the spoiled entitlement litigants, and the usual Tesla bashers we see in every Tesla news story. Just another lawsuit we see everyday and nothing coming even remotely near VW -- that's all over the news. This one won't be, if it even makes it to a lawsuit.

In the end nothing much will come of it.

All businesses know you can't please everyone. If it wasn't this issue, it would be something else. We have multiple threads here about people threatening to sue Tesla over various issues. I remember when auto pilot came out and I missed it, people tried to get me on the "let's sue" bandwagon. Life's too short for that and it's such a spectacular car, and company, that I wouldn't for a moment entertain it.

Oh, and I don't need to be told about the different between getting what I paid for and this issue. I know there is a difference. But I also know if I was part of this issue, you wouldn't get me near the bandwagon.
 
So bring a lawyer and engineer every time I want to purchase from Tesla, ok. What happen to doing honest business? I'm tired of hearing all these excuses, another company is doing that so its ok tesla does it too...really?

There are plenty of people who feel Tesla IS doing honest business, but none of us are so naïve as to believe there aren't many, many businesses that are not doing honest business. And we all know that it's buyer beware, regardless of anything else we know. In a perfect world we wouldn't give it a second thought. This isn't a perfect world, though.

What happened to being responsible for our own actions? That works both ways. Many people hire mechanics to look over used vehicles before deciding which one to buy to make sure they aren't getting duped/getting a good deal/etc... Many people hire experts/professionals to help them with evaluations/consultations/etc... before making purchases for all sorts of products and services. We call friends and family asking them for suggestions for restaurants, healthcare practitioners, hotels, and so on.

It just seems logical and sensible to me that if you're buying a new technology AND a feature of that technology is REALLY, REALLY important to you, that you would investigate the crap out of it to make sure you understood the technology and the feature that held such importance to you. Yep, would be great if the company spelled it out in great and exhaustive detail because that would make the consumer's job a piece of cake, but we don't always get that.