Canuck
Well-Known Member
"smug and pompous".... ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
( I didn't want to let you down so I had to answer. But what really hurt was the part about me "sounding" like I am always right. I am always right! )
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"smug and pompous".... ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
( I didn't want to let you down so I had to answer. But what really hurt was the part about me "sounding" like I am always right. I am always right! )
Nigel Tufnel
Member
Sometimes I feel that being right just isn't enough, the other guy needs to look foolish in the process. 
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Sometimes I feel that being right just isn't enough, the other guy needs to look foolish in the process.
Have you been speaking to my wife or are you just channeling her?
Fair comment though. I'll work on being nicer in my replies. I know that's a bad trait of mine. Good for my business. Bad for forum posts.
Nigel Tufnel
Member
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Is it on? Are you on board for this class action suit? Is it showtime?
There must be lawyers working late in offices, shuffling papers right at this moment, getting ready to file, already salivating.
Perfect opportunity! Time to punish, to make em pay in every way! Demand real satisfaction!
Time for some smart, ambitious lawyers to make bank while setting up some real financial damage for those scoundrels at Tesla!
I am sure these lawyers will be grateful to you!
Maybe get a settlement without even having to face a judge. Nice work, when you can get it, right? Payday!
I mean, just look at all the terrible damage that has been done!
We bought the car for those numbers dammit, and they just don't add up the way they should. It's devastating!
Performance, safety, all of that is fine, but those horsepower numbers..... oh the humanity!
There must be scores, even legions of wounded egos limping around.
Most people just don't have any idea how deeply painful it is when you can't get those numbers to the wheels in the way you were led to believe you could, all because of means of measurement, or battery limitation, or some other poppy-cock!
There must be permanent disabilities involved! Therapists stretched to the limit!
"Um," someone could say, "maybe you could have returned the car, immediately, and said 'these numbers just aren't good enough for me.' Probably negotiate a refund. Or maybe sell the car to some other sucker who doesn't care about HP numbers."
No way! Let's face it, there's no satisfaction in that! Right? So I hear ya! Punishment is what we crave! Financial losses! We'll have all of Tesla's enemies cheering us on! That in itself surely offers a good dose of ego healing. Humiliation and financial damage for Tesla. I'm sure that's the only way to compensate us for the deep, irreparable harm done by having to settle for a mere 450 or 550, when we should have the full 691 that we paid for!
There must be lawyers working late in offices, shuffling papers right at this moment, getting ready to file, already salivating.
Perfect opportunity! Time to punish, to make em pay in every way! Demand real satisfaction!
Time for some smart, ambitious lawyers to make bank while setting up some real financial damage for those scoundrels at Tesla!
I am sure these lawyers will be grateful to you!
Maybe get a settlement without even having to face a judge. Nice work, when you can get it, right? Payday!
I mean, just look at all the terrible damage that has been done!
We bought the car for those numbers dammit, and they just don't add up the way they should. It's devastating!
Performance, safety, all of that is fine, but those horsepower numbers..... oh the humanity!
There must be scores, even legions of wounded egos limping around.
Most people just don't have any idea how deeply painful it is when you can't get those numbers to the wheels in the way you were led to believe you could, all because of means of measurement, or battery limitation, or some other poppy-cock!
There must be permanent disabilities involved! Therapists stretched to the limit!
"Um," someone could say, "maybe you could have returned the car, immediately, and said 'these numbers just aren't good enough for me.' Probably negotiate a refund. Or maybe sell the car to some other sucker who doesn't care about HP numbers."
No way! Let's face it, there's no satisfaction in that! Right? So I hear ya! Punishment is what we crave! Financial losses! We'll have all of Tesla's enemies cheering us on! That in itself surely offers a good dose of ego healing. Humiliation and financial damage for Tesla. I'm sure that's the only way to compensate us for the deep, irreparable harm done by having to settle for a mere 450 or 550, when we should have the full 691 that we paid for!
SDRick
Active Member
Well, that's true but not with enough accuracy to narrow to see the difference between 500 and 550 hp visually or even 475 to 555 unless you're looking real close and don't need any optical correction at all and even then it's barely a few pixels. But that's easily solvable by using the REST API and getting the exact power level.
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Wow! Just flat out wrong. Most Model S owners who can afford to buy a model S in the first place do qualify. The only requirement is that you have $7500 in tax liability. Period. There are no exclusions or income limits. It's one of the most straight forward tax credits there is.
Now if you don't have $7500 in tax liability because you're writing off assets or losses in that year, then sure, but this is not most of the people.
I am curious did you buy the P85D?
Are you saying the end justifies the means & Tesla, the salespeople and the media should continue to promote the 691 HP & 762 HP for Ludicrous regardless of what the buyers believe or understand and regardless of what the real truth is?
Can someone explain to me if the motors are rated at 691 HP motor power, how is it that with Ludicrous they are now rated at 762 HP? Did they change the motors along with the fuse? How does changing the fuse and software increase the capability of the motors to be 762 HP motor power when they are the same motor rating. I'm so confused. Where is this 762 HP RATING coming from when they cannot even output 691 HP?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
He was using sarcasm to put the issue in dispute in perspective. Also, while different people (or "camps") have different versions of "what the real truth is", Tesla provided its version here:
Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors Canada
Just because you don't believe or accept Tesla's version, doesn't make their version any less true, in the same way your version of the truth is not any less true just because others don't believe you. As pointed out, there is only one arbitrator of the truth and that's the court of competent jurisdiction (subject to appeals) -- but only of the truth within its jurisdiction. Often, courts from different jurisdictions come to different findings based on the same facts (see Apple vs. Samsung for example). So telling someone "what the real truth is" assumes that you are telling the real truth. I'm quite certain there's no agreement on that issue.
I don't think anyone is disputing that Tesla's numbers conform to ECE R85 (or at least one interpretation of it). What we're arguing is that they didn't make this fact very clear, and that they should have shown the total system hp in addition to the ECE R85 hp.
Can you explain how the 762 motor HP for the Ludicrous upgrade is derived when the motors were originally rated for only 691 motor HP. Or do we need a court system to decipher that as well? [sarcasm]
The same sort of change happened with other D series cars earlier in the year (85D went from 188 motor power to 2xx something). It could simply be a restatement due to higher confidence. We'll never know probably.
That was one of my theories as well.
While we're talking about motors, I'm a little confused. Perhaps someone can clarify.
Model S | Tesla Motors
70D: 259 + 259
85D: 259 + 259
P85D: 259 + 503
70: 382
85: 382
Model X | Tesla Motors
P90D: 259 + 503
90D: 259 + 259
259, 382, 503 - Three motors in the current Model S and Model X lineup? I somehow didn't notice when the 382 came along. I had thought that the 60, 85, P85, P85D, and P90D all had the same rear motor (just different generations/evolutions/ages of it). I had thought they had different drive units in the P variants due to different inverters and/or cabling. But the phrasing on the web site suggests 3 unique motors -- otherwise it should be "drive unit motor power" rather than just "motor power", correct?
Well there were always a P and non-P rear motor, right? So the 382 is the non-P rear and the 503 is the P (also upstated from 4xx originally).
Not true. I wouldn't come close because to getting the full $7500 tax credit because the standard deduction is by far more valuable for me than itemizing on an average tax year. If I used my stock and long-term savings, bought a Tesla, and itemized my deductions, I would get approximately $4000 at most from the $7500 tax credit.
And that's assuming, of course, that I'm not doing anything weird with my stocks for that year as that could make things even worse.
I chuckled
The whole point of the horsepower argument is that people should have done their research because horsepower the number does not apply to most of the people as you put it, as those people care more about the 0-60 time than the horsepower number.The funny part is that you're thinking the $7500 credit thing is not a big deal because you did your research and know how it works. If people did their research on the horsepower and 0-60 times for EVs or even just any car ever produced in the last few decades, they also would not be blindsided by these facts.
Whether the $7500 credit does or does not apply is indeed very complex and is far from being based solely on income.
Elaborating on what I thought I already said...
My recollection was/is that the (original) P85 and 85 drive units were different but they had the same motor inside the drive unit. The "secret sauce" of Perf was inverter, electronics, cabling -- not motor.
But it I thought the P85D is rated at 691 motor power. That is the max HP they are capable of is it not?
Huh, ok. I seem to recall something about different windings on the P motor back in the early days. Shrug.
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