I just reviewed the 36 pages of this thread, and reviewed my thoughts about it. Then, to be fair, I also reviewed my ancient records of high mileage high end cars I have had. A Mercedes 300SEL 6.3 with >150,000 miles was my closest analogy. There was no extended warranty on that one. Repairs and maintenance on that car cost me almost exactly 80% of the original purchase price between 65,000 and 100,000 miles. I do not know other comparisons. From all the stories I see in this thread the comparisons seem pretty reasonable for the Tesla Model S. These are not much different in maintenance expense than other high mileage expensive cars, from what I see. the more technology the more expensive are high use items down the road. I never expected otherwise, although I still hope for it. Admittedly i am a long way away from these issues.
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Sure hope that percentage doesn't scale to the Model S. If it does most of us will be looking at cumulative repairs exceeding $70 K.
Just curious, what repairs and maintenance were performed that costs 80% of the car price within those 35 thousand miles?
The way I see it, Tesla either needs to make very reliable cars, especially where the powertrain is concerned, or give us an excellent extended warranty for (at least comparable to) what other manufacturers in the segment are doing. They did throw around the "half a million miles" time and time again, yet it is doubtful a car can even make it to 100k without a drive unit. They should also include everything needed to make the car go in the "powertrain" warranty, such as the charger. Apparently if the MCU fails (containing the critical gateway) the car will also not move. In my opinion the gateway should have been a separate module (like it is in the Rav4 EV).
I also want the ability to do my OWN regular maintenance. This would also help reduce the load on the SC's we are now seeing. A coolant loop fluid change is not rocket science, but apparently I need the bleed mode to do it properly, and Tesla won't give that out to anyone, nor the service data to anyone except MA residents.
If Tesla doesn't fix these things within the next few years, regrettably I will be forced to sell my car and abandon the brand. In addition I see many people coming off warranty soon who will probably initiate legal action against Tesla for some of these things and it could have a devastating effect on their mission (which I support), so I'd hate to see that happen.
I also want the ability to do my OWN regular maintenance. This would also help reduce the load on the SC's we are now seeing. A coolant loop fluid change is not rocket science, but apparently I need the bleed mode to do it properly, and Tesla won't give that out to anyone, nor the service data to anyone except MA residents.
If Tesla doesn't fix these things within the next few years, regrettably I will be forced to sell my car and abandon the brand. In addition I see many people coming off warranty soon who will probably initiate legal action against Tesla for some of these things and it could have a devastating effect on their mission (which I support), so I'd hate to see that happen.
It took me a few minutes to pull the records:
1. complete replacement of the pneumatic suspension system, including all the bladders, pumps, connecting hoses and master control system;
2. rebuilt transmission;
3. complete engine rebuild;
4. all four window controls.
There were other smaller things. They are listed in order of cost. These happened all sequentially with the suspension first.
After all that I of course bought the MB-based air suspension for my Tesla. BTW, I never regretted my 300 SEL 6.3 other than selling it before the huge value increase due to collectors.
Wow. The SEL 6.3 is a beautiful car. There's no way I would sell it especially after all that work. That's a car to pass on to the children.
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
I can't fathom how they'd know which TPMS went out with tire rotation. There's no way they can know if you rotated the tires yourself or with a 3rd party. And in my case I have a second set of wheels and TPMS.
thegruf
Active Member
I have justified my Model S purchase on 7 years/150K mile ownership.
It is easy to be scared off by the "noisy 1%" on forums, however
the cost of replacment parts
the refusal of Tesla to entertain any form of servicing outside their Network most especially by competent users
the complete lack of an extended warranty program in the UK (at least the US have one even if there are very legitimate queries about it)
my increasing understanding of "Tesla speak" vs reality
all leading to whats this thing a)actually going to cost me to own? b)going to be worth at resale? c)how much trouble am I going to have with it?
mean that my order is now on hold and I am seriously considering walking away from it (and a £2000 deposit)
I know I will love the car and be a massive advocate of it to others once I have got it,
but right now I desperately need Tesla to convince me.
It is easy to be scared off by the "noisy 1%" on forums, however
the cost of replacment parts
the refusal of Tesla to entertain any form of servicing outside their Network most especially by competent users
the complete lack of an extended warranty program in the UK (at least the US have one even if there are very legitimate queries about it)
my increasing understanding of "Tesla speak" vs reality
all leading to whats this thing a)actually going to cost me to own? b)going to be worth at resale? c)how much trouble am I going to have with it?
mean that my order is now on hold and I am seriously considering walking away from it (and a £2000 deposit)
I know I will love the car and be a massive advocate of it to others once I have got it,
but right now I desperately need Tesla to convince me.
The bottom line is that the Model S is an expensive premium car and it will likely have very expensive repairs just like any other high end car. Whether it is the noisy 1% or the noisy 40% or whatever does not change the fact that what had been discussed are real issues needing real changes and policy changes by Tesla.
What other premium manufacturers does to alleviate the legitimate concerns you have, which I share, and I'm sure many other potential buyers also share is to offer outstanding and comprehensive Extended warranty options. Like you, we also keep our cars for about 6-8 years and for the type of cars we buy, the Extended warranty is critical. Other car manufacturers understand this and Tesla should hopefully get around to understanding the importance of this as well.
We've exclusively bought Mercedes vehicles partly for their comprehensive warranty coverage options. We pay for the extended warranty and we are done as it pretty much covers the entire car, including the air suspension, sunroof leaks or whatever that could go wrong unless it's the tires or some other wear and tear item. Mercedes covers everything in the with a zero deductible and so does most of their competition.
Given that the car can only be worked on by Tesla the warranty coverage is all the more important. Tesla can make most of the Extended warranty issues go away by implementing two simple changes:
- Get rid of the ridiculous $200 PER ISSUE provision of the Extended Warranty (ESA). None of their competitors have such an absurdly high deductible that could possibly apply to every single door handle, TMPS, or any other part of the car as the ESA is written. Sure they could potentially not charge this deductible in certain cases but how is it fair when this deductible is on the contract and they can at a whim decide to charge you $200 for each any every issue they fix.
- Allow Extended Warranty coverage to be purchased for CPO cars. Every one of Tesla's competitors allow this option so that the car can be covered for a total of 6-8 years as their CPO warranty coverage starts when the factory warranty ends, whereas the Tesla CPO warranty REPLACES the factory warranty with no way to extend it.
I don't think either of these two requests are unreasonable but the status quo is.
Your dilemma is one many of us have faced. I came very close to cancelling myself and was on the verge of refusing delivery when i was at the Service Centre taking delivery.
Now it is six months later. I love my car. I have had a couple of episodes, but they were related to me learning how to cope with charging issues, notably the CHAdeMO adapter and installing charging in my parking space (deeded to me with my flat). The car itself has had no problems.
I know the issues after warranty will probably be as they were for other cars. I am fully prepared for them. I am not even worried about limiting after-warranty service to Tesla Service Centres.
My most recent previous England experience out-of-warranty was with a Ferrari. The work was of course expensive even with a non-concessionaire doing the work. Still the parts had to be factory parts.
Nobody can make a decision such as this one other than you, of course.
I would not worry too much for a few reasons:
1. UK roads are far, far better than are US ones so a good many of the US-based problems will probably not happen;
2. In my experience UK servicing is a higher standard than is the US, particularly mechanics tend to actually have training in the UK, not so much US;
3. UK sales are very important for Tesla, so they will devote increasing attention to problem resolution during the next years.
I do not think I am biased, but then nobody biased thinks they are anyway. I have owned a few cars in England and a few in the US and five other countries. As such I always remember that teh quirkier the car the better English mechanics handle the issues (Rover 2000TC, Morgan +8, the odd Porsche and Ferrari). If you had these concerns elsewhere i probably would be a trifle less optimistic. In the UK take delivery! BY 2020 there will be lots of veteran EV's on the road there and the ageing Tesla issues will diminish, don't you think?
If you've owned and maintained a Ferrari, a Tesla is going to seem cheap no matter what they charge for out of warranty repairs
The point is that many who buy a Model S come from more pedestrian vehicles such as a Mercedes, Audi, Porsche or BMW where the warranty options are comprehensive and offer full coverage with no per issue deductibles...
Of course. However, The UK is a bit different than most of the US.If you've owned and maintained a Ferrari, a Tesla is going to seem cheap no matter what they charge for out of warranty repairs
The point is that many who buy a Model S come from more pedestrian vehicles such as a Mercedes, Audi, Porsche or BMW where the warranty options are comprehensive and offer full coverage with no per issue deductibles...
First, exotic cars are far more plentiful in the UK and many are used as daily drivers, not so much in the US. Thus there is somewhat more price competition in high end car servicing in the UK than in the US.
Second, high end cars are most often sold as leased vehicles through employee perk programmes in the UK, then sold on to the secondary market at lease end. Thus, the UK resale market is much more service-price-sensitive than is new car service.
Third, the Tesla model is unusual, to be sure, but they certainly will be quite sensitive to the resale implications of the UK market structure, so I'd be astonished were they to not be reasonable about out-of-warranty costs in the UK.
One high-end manufacturer (you'd think of them as exotic) commissioned my firm to to their UK vehicle strategy. Their eventual decision was to price parts and service well below the typical prevailing prices in most other markets precisely in recognition of the company car issue. Not all of them do that in the UK, to be sure. Tesla certainly will not be unaware of that impact, especially as they are in the process of establishing their market position for Model III.
Of course, I could be wrong! I am not claiming omniscience.
And if that's the case, I will get back into a Prius.
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You should send this important feedback to Elon Musk. Email him at elonmuskoffice (at) teslamotors.com. I'm sure he'd like to know why Model S sales are declining - and they are, because if they weren't, he wouldn't need to pay owners for referrals.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I agree with everything except your last sentence.
Many of us believe that this referral program is the 'secret weapon against dealerships' he talked about at the beginning of the year. If that's the case, then this has been planned for a long time, not a reactionary move to sales, and (because of timing/fact it's only for S sales/ends in time to deliver all cars by EOY) is intended to help make up for all the people waiting to see the X before making a decision right now.
It's also one of the "demand levers" that Elon spoke about some months ago. Tesla has been pulling quite a few demand levers lately... Autopilot launch, D launch, 90 kWh pack, Ludicrous update, and now paid referrals. It's just one tool in his toolbox to stimulate sales. Why would Musk need a "secret weapon against dealerships" if they weren't getting in the way of sales? The reason he needs a secret weapon is because dealer lobbies are getting in the way of Tesla selling in those states. That means lost sales opportunities. If Tesla was still production constrained, as it used to say, then there would be no reason to pull any levers to increase demand for the vehicle.
Agree with MsElectric and the added bonus is the lack of ability to work on the cars ourselves. It is pretty common on forums to find folks like myself who are considering a used model and factor in our ability to work on the vehicle ourselves as a means to absorb the costs associated with owning cars that were originally very expensive. Case in point, I did all the work on my 2002 M5 (and there was a LOT of it...MAF sensors, camshaft position sensors, fuel injectors removed and cleaned, thermostats, belts, power steering hoses, control arms,throttle positions sensors, etc. etc.). To not even have the OPTION of doing that work myself and further see so many mechanical repairs solved with "replaced entire drive unit" is more than a bit concerning. To sum it up:
1. No extended warranty for CPOs
2. High per issue warranty deductible/copay per issue
3. No option to DIY most things
4. History of "replace a single big component" to solve drive-train related problems
Even for owners who think "Irrelevant to me since I won't keep it out of warranty", you may want to think again when it comes resale time...this is the kind of stuff that kills resale on a number of high end cars. Then again, maybe if you can afford $130K for your P85D (awesome if you can), you might be financially insulated enough that it just doesn't matter to you.
Actually many who buy a Model S come from more pedestrian vehicles than Mercedes..., not such as Mercedes...
