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Non-Tesla charging sucks
- Thread starter Mullermn
- Start date
It’s crazy that mostly non Tesla cars have to deal with this, I had a LEAF for 5 years and was limited to a 75 mile radius to be able to get home. I took a 250 each way miles road-trip this weekend with my model 3 and didn’t even have to think about it
This was my experience going on holiday to Italy from northern scandinavia also.
We drove all the way through Europe and charged solely on Tesla SuC and there was not a single problem, every time we plugged in they just worked.
The nearest SuC from our holiday destination was 50 kilometers away so we had to rely on different destination chargers. I met another tesla driver at a charger and we ended up agreeing that you don't fully start to appreciate the Tesla SuC network until you tried charging in a non tesla spot.
The place we were staying at had 6 destination chargers, they needed a special app so downloaded and installed, entered CC info and so on.
But the chargers were all poorly labeled and in 3 different locations so you basically had to plug in and then try starting the carge on one charger after the other in the app, until you found the correct one.
Another one from the biggest charger company in the country was located at a supermarket carpark, it worked okay, but the pricing was odd. There was one price in the offical app, but i also have Northe and the price in their app for the same charger was somewhat cheaper.
Compare that to just plugging in, charger just starts up charging, price is lower that any of the other SuC (And here, often also cheaper than both destination chargers and even cheaper than home charging).
No messing around with "100 apps", no looking through different apps to find the cheapest price for the same charger and very rarely any waiting time.
Only once on that holiday did we have to wait 10 minutes to get to a charger because of a queue
This was one of the first places they opened in my country, 16 V2 chargers.
When we parked and started the charge, i looked out the window and saw the construction site just 50 meters away...They had the concrete foundation made for 24 V3 chargers, so i dont expect to have to wait there, the next time
pdk42
Active Member
The problem ultimately points to government and regulation. The mess we have now is because it’s been left to the private sector with almost no regulation or financial support (or in some cases, misguided support - like the initial installs of slow chargers in towns and cities). If any of these “end of ICE” deadlines are going to be met, government needs to step in and fix the charging system.
Really, our current zombie government to step in? I'm confident they could set electrification back even further if they try to help.
I'm not entirely sure I would say that Scotland is in any better position than the rest of the UK due to the government driven incentives and direct funding, yes it quickly extended the reach of the network, but without commercial incentive to keep the equipment functioning then it's soon broken. Only really now are we starting to see the commercial networks like Ionity, Instavolt etc. installing the scale of facilities required for more widespread adoption.
Much as I'm green and socialist in my views I do wonder if this is really something where interference isn't required. Remove the 2030 deadline entirely, invest in public transport (which I think should be free at the point of use), accelerate the rate at which we bring down the electricity price through renewables and remove subsidies to oil industries and cancel all road building projects (other than cycle lanes). Take the 'culture war' entirely out of it. people will switch away from ICE as there are cheaper alternatives. The current approach of bring in laws rather than offering incentives is doomed to political failure sooner or later.
shahryaran
Member
Markets which have already made a massive switch to EV’s like Norway and China (Think they crossed the line of 50% of all new cars sold are EV’s now) have achieved this with large government funding programs. I do think we likely need to do the same.
At the end of the day an EV costs more to buy. Even if you can charge at home you might well not make the cost difference back. For those that have to charge in public, it’s likely more expensive than fuel. Range is shorter and papers are filling people’s heads around massive queues and anti EV articles.
Frankly there’s little reason to get an EV for most people and a lot of reasons not to get one.
pdk42
Active Member
I agree with this. If you look at EV sales, it’s mostly fleet buyers. Private buyers are still sticking with ICE.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Government has seen fit to favour company purchase. I'm not sure why? but those will trickle down to 2nd hand private buyers
I reckon those buyers need to look ahead. Getting rid of a diesel/petrol in a few years time is going to be worth diddly-squat. And if ULEZ expands to other cities ICE owners will either not be driving into them, or paying through the nose ...
The poorer motorist will take the brunt, as usual. Unless a scrappage scheme helps them out
Could work out cheaper than cleaning up the CO2 later / retrospectively ... How about we do away with 5 years terms and leave the current government in power for 25 years so they can focus? !!
M1tch
2021 M3P with EAP
Agreed! The further our government is from anything, the better it will be! Absolute wombles!
Ha.
"An EV costs more to buy."
Sure, that's right now. But it sure as heck isn't going to stay that way.
Look at an ICE, any ICE. Literally thousands of moving parts and wear items. If one has ever looked at the actual process of building that hunk of iron and aluminum (which I've done, a few times) it's just frigging amazing that that block can be built for less than $100,000 or so. A 150 years or so of more-or-less continual improvement and highly automated manufacturing has gotten us to the point where the casting, the drilling, the smoothing, the forging, and all that $CRAZY stuff has been pushed to the point where an average gonzo can actually buy one.
And we haven't even gotten to the transmission: A characteristic of ICEs is that they have a limited range of RPM for power and vague efficiency; to make up for that, one has (minimum) 3 forward speeds and up to six. The sheer number of gears and the complexity of the transmission invites even more automated manufacturing and continual improvement that has taken nearly 70 years to get us to where we are now, with automatic transmission prices pushed down to the point where it's almost di rigure to have one on a given car.
An electric car's power motors are, by comparison, far, far more simple. And most electrics have one (1) forward and one (1) reverse speed - so what passes for a transmission is ridiculously simple by comparison.
The hardest part to build is the battery. And that's not because of the expense of the raw materials; rare earths, generally, aren't. And LiPoFe batteries use elements that are major portions of the Earth's crust.
It's well-known that the ICE manufacturers were pushing back, hard, on BEV development for fear of the financial hit of losing all those sunk costs. It took a maniac like Musk to bust it up.
And, yes, right now the BEVs have been more expensive - but, given a mere, what, 15 years or so or serious technology development, Tesla built cars with 'way more technology and were still making a ridiculous profit, far outstripping the rest of the automotive industry. And Tesla is still dropping prices as the scale of manufacturing and the automation for this newer hardware comes on line. You think that they, and the other car manufacturers, are finished pushing costs down, yet? You're dreaming.
When most of the kerfuffle is over, I expect that the cost of a BEV will be 70% of the equivalent ICE; possibly, as low as 50%, and maybe more. I'm optimistic; I'd say give it ten years. But in 20, when youngsters are told how much a, say, Toyota Corolla cost, they'll look at their elders and say, "You paid what for that?"
Right now the average BEV is more expensive, It's not going to stay that way.
ULEZ though is a Diesel older than around 2015 or a Petrol older than 2006. By 2030 when they ban the sale of ICE cars I'd not expect all that many cars that get caught up in this to still be on the road. ULEZ will only be around while it's economically viable to run it, once they get down to a pretty low amount of vehicles left it'll get shutdown. It's expensive to run.
In terms of value of ICE's in the future none of us know. I often wonder this but I have a feeling once they stop making new ones the value be kept pretty strong in the used market or could go up. It probably needs a push from the government to stop that happening or just a massive rise in fuel costs to put people off.
I agree they will get to the same price and then cheaper than current cars. Also the reduced maintenance is great unless that's your business to provide those services.
However we are not there quite yet. At the moment EV's are needing strong incentives to sell as supply is higher than demand. They also are not keeping their value in the second hand market. My Discovery might be a bit of an outlier due to the massive queue to get a JLR car but it's still worth a massive amount of money considering it's getting to be around 2 years old now. It's dropped very little value in that time.
We need EV's to hit price parity or better be cheaper, along with a good increase of charging a few years before 2030 so it's a smooth switchover. This probably means we need a wide selection of cars like the Model 2 so we don't price out anyone that can already afford an ICE.
Zilla91
Active Member
That mythical car that doesn't actually exist and is a figment of Tesla shareholder's imagination?
Maybe so but we need OEM’s to make those budget cars to cover the low end of the market. The 3 is a mid market car, out of the price range of a lot of people.
You can imagine how well it’ll go down when the government tells people they cannot have an ICE anymore and this prices out the less fortunate that used to have a car back in the fossil ages
Zilla91
Active Member
You've obviously not come across the MG4 or the budget BYD cars coming to market soon, or other cheaps cars coming out of China or super minis like the Corsa or 206 then.
Yes but there’s lots of ICE cars down in the £13k mark new. The electric Corsa is what, £30k+ I think and the ICE is £18k. Much more likely that people in this bracket won’t have a drive and will have to public charge all the time. So it’ll be more expensive to buy, potentially more expensive to run and more expensive to insure. The EV costs more than the national average wage in the country.
What’s the sales pitch to these people to buy the EV over the electric car currently? It doesn’t exist so frankly EV’s need to get down into the £15k price mark by today’s money for the most basic ones. And not one that can only do like 50 miles, those ICE cars will cover reasonable distance.
I mean of course there’s second hand but people that used to be able to buy new won’t be able to anymore. Of course I do think EV’s can get down to that price level it’s just when vs the 2030 ban date for ICE. Can they pull it off in the next 6 years, maybe but I imagine it’s got to get into diminishing gains in reducing the cost at some point so it gets harder to keep shaving the cost down.
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WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Reducing numbers of pumps, as demand for Fossil Fuels falls, may be another factor
Price of new is going to fall, which will be reflected in used price - as that happens the owner has similar make-up-money to buy a replacement new one. So on the first one they lost their shirt, but the second one cost much the same after trade in. Not quite there yet, but another couple of years and I reckon we will be.
Great post, sums up more or less my experience as an I-Pace driver for the last two years. I had a M3 LR on a 71 plate but had my eye turned due to the Jag’s interior. On the day we decided to look at a new M3 Performance they announce the Highland and so I’m willing to wait.
In 2023 the message is clear, if you want a reliable network to use, one that will most likely be at least in the location it’s advertised at then the only choice is Tesla.
