New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

[Canuck]

I have no idea what percentage of people it would work for so I do not know if I'm an exception or a rule. But you specifically asked for just ONE person it worked for. You seem to be trying to move the goal posts from saying it can't work for anyone to it can't work for most people.

You were responding to an assertion that "EVs with 80 mile range works just fine for lots of people." You stated "I'd like to meet one in person".

I am ONE such person. There's nothing particularly unique about me that I'm aware, but you were effectively denying my existence.

I don't know if an all ~80 mile range EV ownership would work for most people. It might. I'd consider that an open question, certainly not an open and shut one.

You've misunderstood me. I don't doubt your existence and I'm not moving any goal posts. I've just never met a person who didn't have to sacrifice to drive a low range EV. I know you're out there. There's people who live in downtown Vancouver and never leave the city core and the Leaf is perfect for them. I just don't know those people and I've never met them in person. My point was only that I've heard from them on the internet but not in person. That's all.

I know there are a lot of people who make sacrifices to have it as their primary vehicle. That's a different issue and, in fact, I look up to those people. That's admirable. I'm too selfish and self-centered to give up my freedom of being able to go where ever I want, when ever I want. That's why Tesla is so important: for selfish, self-centered jerks like me. I'd still being driving a ICE (hybrid albeit) were it not for Tesla with a Leaf as my second car (in fact, I still keep my Tahoe Hybrid for towing my boat).

 

[Ktowntslafan]

You've misunderstood me. I don't doubt your existence and I'm not moving any goal posts. I've just never met a person who didn't have to sacrifice to drive a low range EV. I know you're out there. There's people who live in downtown Vancouver and never leave the city core and the Leaf is perfect for them. I just don't know those people and I've never met them in person. My point was only that I've heard from them on the internet but not in person. That's all.

I know there are a lot of people who make sacrifices to have it as their primary vehicle. That's a different issue and, in fact, I look up to those people. That's admirable. I'm too selfish and self-centered to give up my freedom of being able to go where ever I want, when ever I want. That's why Tesla is so important: for selfish, self-centered jerks like me. I'd still being driving a ICE (hybrid albeit) were it not for Tesla with a Leaf as my second car (in fact, I still keep my Tahoe Hybrid for towing my boat).

Sail boat? or Electric Boat? (Hybrid?)

Jokes!

So back to the point of this thread...what's going to happen to car dealers when the Model 3 ramps up?

 

[Canuck]

what's going to happen to car dealers when the Model 3 ramps up?

Remember Kodak cameras and film?

 

[Bangor Bob]

Sail boat? or Electric Boat? (Hybrid?) Jokes! So back to the point of this thread...what's going to happen to car dealers when the Model 3 ramps up?

They won't have to keep wasting time and lot-space with useless little cars and can concentrate on pickup trucks where the real money is?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

They won't have to keep wasting time and lot-space with useless little cars and can concentrate on pickup trucks where the real money is?

OF COURSE!

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There apparently is a term for this-Idiots!: Rolling coal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Can't resist:

 

[dsm363]

I have no idea what percentage of people it would work for so I do not know if I'm an exception or a rule. But you specifically asked for just ONE person it worked for. You seem to be trying to move the goal posts from saying it can't work for anyone to it can't work for most people.

You were responding to an assertion that "EVs with 80 mile range works just fine for lots of people." You stated "I'd like to meet one in person".

I am ONE such person. There's nothing particularly unique about me that I'm aware, but you were effectively denying my existence.

I don't know if an all ~80 mile range EV ownership would work for most people. It might. I'd consider that an open question, certainly not an open and shut one.

As purely a commuter car it'd work for a majority of people. As a primary car for the family that number would be far far less.

 

[Twiglett]

Pat, Pat on my back...someone make me a CEO already:

While no one at Audi was saying that the automaker is going to open up its own EV stores, like Tesla has, but two Audi of America executives were certainly warm to a different style of how an automaker can encourage EV sales.

Audi looking for Tesla-style, non-traditional way to sell EVs

They can want all they like - but in the US it's illegal for them to bypass the dealership. Tesla can almost get away with it because they don't have dealers, but even then they are blocked in some states.

 

[Zythryn]

They can want all they like - but in the US it's illegal for them to bypass the dealership. Tesla can almost get away with it because they don't have dealers, but even then they are blocked in some states.

No, it is not.
In some states, that don't believe in free enterprise, it is. But there is nothing in the federal laws that states different sales models (that are legal) can't compete.

Many businesses have both franchises and manufacturer owned stores in the same markets.

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I'd like to meet one in person since the only people I hear this from are people posting on forums. If the Leaf is your primary car, you have to make sacrifices. Period. ...

No, you are incorrect.
You may very well need to make sacrifices, but you can't tell others that they need to make sacrifices.
And to tie this in, this is exactly what many car salesmen do in order to dismiss EVs.

I know many people for whom the Leaf works wonderfully as their primary car, and even a few for whom the Leaf works as their only car.
As for that being the exception or the rule, I don't know. However, I don't think just because it wouldn't work for you without sacrifices automatically makes it a rule.
Also, in summer I easily get 90 miles in our 2015 Leaf without using ECO mode.
.

 

[Canuck]

You may very well need to make sacrifices, but you can't tell others that they need to make sacrifices.

Yes I can and will continue to do so since my conscience won't let me tell people the Leaf is suitable as their primary vehicle, unless they are willing to make sacrifices. I don't like to mislead or deceived people. I tell people it's a great second car but if it's going to be their primary vehicle then wait for the 2017 Leaf when they are coming out with the 60 kWh battery, or for the Model 3. I know a lot of people who are waiting to go full electric with the Model 3 as their primary vehicle.

 

[Twiglett]

Is this why the i3 is so ugly and the Leaf so odd looking? I had often wondered why BMW wouldn't make their EV model look sleek like its 3 and 5 series cars.

I don't think the current manufacturers can win.
If they make a car that looks different, they get panned for making look different and not like an ICE car.
If they make a car that is an EV version of an ICE, they get panned for not developing a new car and converting an ICE model.
You could almost feel sorry for them - but not that sorry

 

[jerry33]

I don't think the current manufacturers can win.
If they make a car that looks different, they get panned for making look different and not like an ICE car.
If they make a car that is an EV version of an ICE, they get panned for not developing a new car and converting an ICE model.
You could almost feel sorry for them - but not that sorry

But the main reason they can't win is that the automobile manufacturers' stockholders won't sit still for a few years of no profits while they develop a real EV that cuts sales of their current profitable ICE cars. Also the dealers, who are the car manufacturers' real customers, don't want electric cars so they put pressure on both the manufacturer and the consumer to purchase what they've always purchased.

 

[Jim MacInnes]

Remember Kodak cameras and film?

 

[JohnQ]

No, it is not.
In some states, that don't believe in free enterprise, it is. But there is nothing in the federal laws that states different sales models (that are legal) can't compete.

Many businesses have both franchises and manufacturer owned stores in the same markets.

In a great many states (I don't know if it's all), under state law, it's illegal for a vehicle manufacturer to sell directly to the public if they already sell through a franchised dealership. This law was originally put on the books to protect dealerships from being undercut by the manufacturer after the dealership cultivated and grew a market.

Tesla has been able to open sales locations in most states because they do not have existing franchises there.

 

[dsm363]

In a great many states (I don't know if it's all), under state law, it's illegal for a vehicle manufacturer to sell directly to the public if they already sell through a franchised dealership. This law was originally put on the books to protect dealerships from being undercut by the manufacturer after the dealership cultivated and grew a market.

Tesla has been able to open sales locations in most states because they do not have existing franchises there.

In some states it's illegal for manufacturers to sell to customers even if they don't have a franchise in the state.

 

[dhanson865]

Yes I can and will continue to do so since my conscience won't let me tell people the Leaf is suitable as their primary vehicle, unless they are willing to make sacrifices. I don't like to mislead or deceived people. I tell people it's a great second car but if it's going to be their primary vehicle then wait for the 2017 Leaf when they are coming out with the 60 kWh battery, or for the Model 3. I know a lot of people who are waiting to go full electric with the Model 3 as their primary vehicle.

and that is fine for you to tell that to people that live above the 40th parallel (40 degrees north of the equator) between the rocky mountains and the Mississippi river or live in the some other sparse portions of the western US that is ultra rural no matter how far south it is.

But for those of us south of the 40th parallel and/or in metro areas you'd be misleading them.

I see little range degradation in the winter. I'm still getting good range even at 30F outside. I don't see many days below that and when I do I still have reserves I haven't tapped.

I have a gas car I want to sell that I drive around once a week just to keep the gas from going stale. I literally drive the Leaf and only the Leaf for all my driving of any distance over 2 miles.

The only sacrifice I'm making driving the leaf is the same sacrifice I make every time i buy a car. I'm trying to sell the old one. Buy my old beater from me and I'll have no sacrifices left to make.

 

[Canuck]

and that is fine for you to tell that to people that live above the 40th parallel (40 degrees north of the equator) between the rocky mountains and the Mississippi river or live in the some other sparse portions of the western US that is ultra rural no matter how far south it is.

But for those of us south of the 40th parallel and/or in metro areas you'd be misleading them.

Nope. 80 miles of range isn't enough for the vast majority of people as their primary vehicle regardless of where they live. Tesla understand that and even Nissan knows this:

"Multiple reports quoting Nissan’s executives have them saying a new, more heat-resistant battery chemistry with improved energy density is waiting in the wings. Last May, Andy Palmer, executive vice president, said at least 186 miles range would be needed to keep up with competitors.

Beyond the then-unforeseen Chevy Bolt EV – or whatever they may call it – or others like Tesla’s Model 3, long-range fuel cell vehicles may also begin vying for attention, and will add to reasons for EV makers to increase the range. Palmer simply said more consumers want more range, so to expand the empire, this they will have to do."

What Do We Know About the 2017 Nissan Leaf?

 

[dhanson865]

Nope. 80 miles of range isn't enough for the vast majority of people

Ah there you go moving the goal post. Now it has to work for the vast majority of people or it's impossible for the minority to use it without making sacrifices.

Why don't you just say you don't want to promote EVs and want to bash anyone that makes any possible positive comment about them that wouldn't fit your lifestyle and climate combination.

I assure you that there are millions of us in the US that live in the right climate and have the right lifestyle to use a Leaf with no sacrifices and nothing you say will change that for us.

 

[ggr]

Yes I can and will continue to do so since my conscience won't let me tell people the Leaf is suitable as their primary vehicle, unless they are willing to make sacrifices. I don't like to mislead or deceived people. I tell people it's a great second car but if it's going to be their primary vehicle then wait for the 2017 Leaf when they are coming out with the 60 kWh battery, or for the Model 3. I know a lot of people who are waiting to go full electric with the Model 3 as their primary vehicle.

Well, then, either don't say anything, or tell them that it is very subjective. So far your tone on this forum has been totally dismissive of the possibility that a Leaf could be someone's primary vehicle; I know one family that has only two Leafs, and they have been very happy for about 5 years. (Although one is about to be traded on an S60.)

 

[dsm363]

We are getting way off topic. The Leaf is a perfectly nice car and can absolutely work for a lot of people but a 80 mile EV with today's quick charging infrastructure has very little appeal to a large percentage of the car buying public (even if it would work as their primary car). Dealerships certainly won't be steering people towards a short range EV outside of big cities if they explain they don't have any other cars and they like to travel outside where they live.

 

[Canuck]

Ah there you go moving the goal post. Now it has to work for the vast majority of people or it's impossible for the minority to use it without making sacrifices.

Why don't you just say you don't want to promote EVs and want to bash anyone that makes any possible positive comment about them that wouldn't fit your lifestyle and climate combination.

I assure you that there are millions of us in the US that live in the right climate and have the right lifestyle to use a Leaf with no sacrifices and nothing you say will change that for us.

Nice try, but I'm the biggest promoter of EV's there is. I just sent an email today to Catherine McKenna (@ec_minister) | Twitter our new Minister on the Environment and Climate change pushing for federal EV rebates in Canada. What have you done lately?

However, I'm also a realist. I want to get everyone into EV's -- not just the environmentalists since there's not enough of them to solve the problem. Nissan know "consumers want more range". That's me! Nissan is responding to what people like me are telling them. This is about getting EVERYONE into EV's and short range EV's, while part of the solution, are far too small of a part. This is what Elon Musk has said. We don't want to make sacrificies to drive EV's. EV's, done right, mean less sacrifices.

As to moving the goal posts, they've stayed firmly planted since my first post. Once again, as I said before: "I'm not moving any goal posts. I've just never met a person who didn't have to sacrifice to drive a low range EV. I know you're out there. There's people who live in downtown Vancouver and never leave the city core and the Leaf is perfect for them." Goal post is still there -- it hasn't moved.

Well, then, either don't say anything, or tell them that it is very subjective. So far your tone on this forum has been totally dismissive of the possibility that a Leaf could be someone's primary vehicle; I know one family that has only two Leafs, and they have been very happy for about 5 years. (Although one is about to be traded on an S60.)

How can I not say anything? For example, both my mother and sister want to get an electric vehicle and asked me about the Leaf because they don't want to spend what a Tesla costs. They both have very active lifestyles and drive a lot. I knew it wouldn't work for them without making sacrifices. My sister ended up buying a Ford C-MAX Hybrid since she needed a new car and couldn't wait and it works great for her. My mother's car is fine so she's waiting for the Model 3. I'm not going to tell them it's subjective when I know objectively it won't work for them. If someone whose lifestyle I don't know asks me about our Leaf, I tell them it's a great second car but the range is far too low as a primary vehicle. They are asking for my opinion and I am providing it.