New stationary grid storage product from Tesla this year

[David99]

That was actually my thought for a while. Sooner or later there will be a massive amount of 'old' batteries from Tesla vehicles that upgrade to newer batteries. On a car it is critical to have the best weight to performance on a battery. Even a 10% capacity loss is considered bad. For grid storage, size and weight matters little. Grid storage batteries is a great use for recycled Model S batteries. A cell that lost 10% capacity is still perfectly fine in a grid storage system and the usage as grid storage is far less stressful on a battery than in a car. So they will probably be fine for many years to come.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I wonder if this might:

1) Eventually use recycled pack cells - perhaps as a lower-power density tier of product offering/pricing

Do you mean life-after-car or life-after-death? I don't think life-after-car is a good fit for consumer packs, because smaller packs means the transactional cost of getting the pack would be relatively high for a shorter life cycle. Life-after-car cells are, I feel, better in large-scale commercial systems where "transactional cost" of a shorter replacement cycle wouldn't be as high per kWh.

Life-after-death would make sense if cost savings from lower-purity output of recycling outweighed the effect on performance.

2) Use current chemistry/form factor cells as newer tech cells eventually are selected for newer cars and production for them comes online

Longer term I see a divergence of static and automotive storage as static storage doesn't need the same power density.

But you could see "reject" automotive cells going into consumer packs.

 

[scaesare]

[/COLOR]


kWh. kW is a measure of power; kWh is a measure of energy. Here's a quick primer. I think the national average is somewhere around 30-40 kWh/day. My home is 2100 sq ft and is right around 30 kWh/day.

Yup yup.. got lazy and dropped the "h". Fixed post.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

First of all, after watching some of JB Straubel's talks on YouTube over the past few years, I would not be surprised if Tesla pivots from an automotive manufacturer to focus more on their battery offerings. Maybe they'll split out the business into two separate entities, we'll have to see.

I don't think so. The static storage battery market is going to be cost-centered, but automotive life is much tougher and that, to me, means that it'll be easier to hold onto an advantage in that market.

I think it's important that Tesla tackles both markets, because they are both potentially huge, and successful static storage will help BEV:
- static storage can be used to overcome localized infrastructural constraints
- PV + static storage puts further pressure on current pricing models; if it forces a correction to more demand-based distribution charges it would lower marginal electricity prices, improving EV economics.
- more batteries sold, more rapid amortization of R&D

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla prices these packs using marginal pricing on the cells.

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That would be 7 megawatts per hour. No.. not unless your house is a mansion or commercial building.

Given your subsequent comment that a 85kWh battery would run it for over a week, I suspect you meant 7kWh... and that would be rather low. My house averages ~75kWh a day. While it's not a small house, it's not huge either.

Get an energy audit!

 

[dhanson865]

You're confusing power (kW) with energy (kWh). A typical home uses around 600 to 800 kWh per month. The maximum you could ever pull from a 100 amp residential service is about 19 kW but typically peaks around 5 to 10 kW.

no, they were talking about how many days the 85kWh battery could power a house. They weren't confusing instantaneous power with power over time, they were just leaving off the h for both the battery and the house.

I think it would be reasonable to assume I could get several days of backup power out of a 85kWh Model S if my grid power were down for a few days. I average 30 kWh/day usage but I'd throttle down some unneeded use in an outage.

 

[mitch672]

I think there are 2 main reasons for this to be announced now:

1. If demand slows, Tesla could have some excess cells from Panasonic, that could be used in these systems, so it's kind of a backup plan for them, should demand slow, or they have some production issues that slow them down, just use the cells in the home storage units.

2. When the Gigafactory comes online, it may be earlier than expected, and there are bonds that need to start being re-paid in 2017, so before the Model 3 is ready, the initially capacity of the factory can be used for home storage, also would be an environment where less than perfect cells could be tolerated, which may be the case for initial startup of new/untested battery production lines..

 

[dhanson865]

Get an energy audit!

I have to wonder at 75kWh a day if he doesn't have 2 or 3 EVs and multiple HPWCs. If you drive 200 miles a day on two model S cars (400 miles worth of charging split across two cars) and charge them at home only how much of that 75kWh a day would that represent?

 

[scaesare]

Do you mean life-after-car or life-after-death?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to describe...

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I have to wonder at 75kWh a day if he doesn't have 2 or 3 EVs and multiple HPWCs. If you drive 200 miles a day on two model S cars (400 miles worth of charging split across two cars) and charge them at home only how much of that 75kWh a day would that represent?

Well, a full charge on a Model S is ~80kWh... although with losses you'll pull more than that from the house.

My typical daily driving represents 20-35-kWh per day... a third more more of my typical usage.

Interestingly my home draw goes up in the summer with air conditioning for ~4100 sq. ft, but my car usage goes down with the warm temps. In the winter my home usage goes down, but the car usage increases....

 

[wycolo]

As MSs reach 50k miles the owner might consider harvesting the battery sheets, wk057 style, for their new home solar system. Then return the big battery box (empty) to TM for refurbing. The labor involved in removing all the individual cells from the plastic-housed sheet units might exceed simply making new ones. Does TM even do this rebuilding of sheets?

So until the GigaFactory changes the whole enchillada, this might be the best approach to pressing old MS batteries into solar service.
--

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to describe...

life-after-car: cells still have usable life left in them, disassemble the pack, put cells/modules into packs for use in static storage.
life-after-death: cells are dead, so recycle the materials and build new cells.

 

[scaesare]

life-after-car: cells still have usable life left in them, disassemble the pack, put cells/modules into packs for use in static storage.
life-after-death: cells are dead, so recycle the materials and build new cells.

Ah. Well, I consider any new cells made from materials harvested in recycling to be... well uh... "new". Similar to how the new body panels on my S probably have some recycled beer cans in them.

So I was referring to the former...

 

[ecarfan]

Too many of the media articles about Tesla's forthcoming stationary grid storage product use the words "power your home" with the implication that the product will be able to provide all your home power requirements. I think it quite likely that is not accurate. The product will more likely be used for peak shaving to reduce utility charges and to provide power during brief grid outages. If both those things are possible with the new Tesla product I think at would be great and I want one. But I doubt the new product, on its own, will allow the homeowner to go off grid or to power their home completely for the many hours of each day where the sun is not shining. Batteries just aren't cheap enough yet to do that.

 

[airj1012]

Too many of the media articles about Tesla's forthcoming stationary grid storage product use the words "power your home" with the implication that the product will be able to provide all your home power requirements. I think it quite likely that is not accurate. The product will more likely be used for peak shaving to reduce utility charges and to provide power during brief grid outages. If both those things are possible with the new Tesla product I think at would be great and I want one. But I doubt the new product, on its own, will allow the homeowner to go off grid or to power their home completely for the many hours of each day where the sun is not shining. Batteries just aren't cheap enough yet to do that.

Exactly my thoughts. Thats why I created this thread to see what people's speculations are on the program, who actually know and follow Tesla. One media outlet has created a story and the rest of them are just copying.

 

[mibaro2]

Lots of speculation on how this program will work. I like the idea of using batteries that aren't quite up to spec for cars, but are good enough for storage. I wouldn't expect to get off-grid with the storage system, but using it for "peak shaving" would be worth it.
And as others have said, this is a good time to roll this program out since Tesla will have to do somethng with all the old battery packs. I wonder if the Roadster upgrade program ties into this...would Tesla use old Roadster battery packs, or are they too outdated.
Will be interesting to see this develop.

 

[Chris TX]

I have an interesting thought about this storage product. Right now, I get free electricity from 9PM to 6AM. If I used that time to charge the storage unit and my two cars, then used the stored power during the day instead of paying the normal $/kwh price, this would make it all free to me. I wonder what the pricing structure would be for this storage unit.

 

[airj1012]

Lots of speculation on how this program will work. I like the idea of using batteries that aren't quite up to spec for cars, but are good enough for storage. I wouldn't expect to get off-grid with the storage system, but using it for "peak shaving" would be worth it.
And as others have said, this is a good time to roll this program out since Tesla will have to do somethng with all the old battery packs. I wonder if the Roadster upgrade program ties into this...would Tesla use old Roadster battery packs, or are they too outdated.
Will be interesting to see this develop.

While I think its a great and creative idea to re-use old battery packs, I'm not sure that will be the initial direction. I definitely think Tesla will want to get to that point because I imagine that they believe its an important sustainable move that must be leveraged but I think the beginning of the program will use only new battery packs. Back to JB's talk in 2014 - 2014 Energy Storage Symposium - JB Straubels Keynote - YouTube they're planning on producing 15GWh/yr in cells out of the total allotment of 50GWh/yr that the Gigafactory will be able to create in 2020. That's a pretty huge percentage (30%) of the factory being used strictly for stationary battery packs.

In my eyes this is pretty massive news. The details of the plan will be out in a month or two and within 6 months the program will be live along with the MX. I'm glad there's been a pull back in TSLA recently as I've pulled the trigger to get back in.

 

[TEG]

Why Teslas battery for your home should terrify utilities | The Verge

Tesla Motors Announces A New Home Battery; Living Off The Grid Will Soon Be Status Quo

 

[ev-enthusiast]

Nissan learning from Tesla:
At the 2015 Geneva Motor Show Nissan and Endesa, an Enel Group subsidiary, asigned a ground-breaking agreement that paves the way for a mass-market vehicle-to-grid (V2G) system. The two companies have pledged to work together to deliver a V2G system and an innovative business model designed to leverage this technology in the European markets.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Nissan learning from Tesla:
At the 2015 Geneva Motor Show Nissan and Endesa, an Enel Group subsidiary, asigned a ground-breaking agreement that paves the way for a mass-market vehicle-to-grid (V2G) system. The two companies have pledged to work together to deliver a V2G system and an innovative business model designed to leverage this technology in the European markets.

Tesla isn't planning V2G, except maybe controlled charging (which I think of as G2V). (JB Straubel implied as much in 2013 at the GCEP talk). I agree with him, as I really don't see how you can have the scale to benefit and the pricing of batteries where it's worth it.

 

[ev-enthusiast]

Tesla isn't planning V2G, except maybe controlled charging (which I think of as G2V). (JB Straubel implied as much in 2013 at the GCEP talk). I agree with him, as I really don't see how you can have the scale to benefit and the pricing of batteries where it's worth it.

Yea, correct, not quite same, sorry for being not precise enough.
But let's see what the entire Tesla system (solar, storage, vehicle) will be really about.
Yes, I can imagine controlled charging as an application as well (charging times / procedure does not bother you as long as you know you get your car fully charged in the morning each day).

I still see a small issue currently with V2G.
EV batteries currently have "small" capacity.
To be prepared for some lengthy trips it is positive to have a fully charged vehicle most of the time.
Taking some energy from the vehicle battery to the grid reduces the vehicle range immediately.
With bigger vehicle batteries (like Tesla Model S 85 going in that direction) and thus less negative impact on vehicle range I can imagine V2G to spread more and more in the years to come.