New P90D does 1/4 mile in 10.8 and 0-60 in 2.8s. Question: Does P85D get any love?

[smilepak]

They should not call it the P90D....

They should call it the P90X hahahaahah

 

[3mp_kwh]

If you were Tesla, how would you try to transmit the performance of the car to world?

What I would not say is, if the drive shafts were capable of delivering 1,000HP, that the car was a "1,000HP car". Torque and trap times were all Tesla needed. Now, requiring $6,000+ to approach "691HP", as "discounted", looks a bit like a follow-up act. I wouldn't take refuge believing P90D customers will be paying $13,000, for long.

Not feelin' the love with this episode. I'm just glad it was what I expected, because I drove it first and knew things weren't as awesome as they are down low, above 40-50mph.

 

[mgboyes]

Just catching up on this thread so apologies if I'm stating things that have already been said:

You can listen to the audio of the call at Elon Musk announces Ludicrous Mode for Model S (2015) AUDIO - YouTube (though the transcript at Musk Archives - EV News ReportEV News Report looks accurate to me). It's pretty muffled so if this is what the conference bridge sounded like I can see why people misheard things.

Clearly there has been a ton of confusion because
a) some journalists heard "pack and electronics upgrade" for $5k plus labour, when in fact he said "pack electronics upgrade" i.e. the ludicrous fuse, and
b) other journalists thought that $3k was the price of existing owners getting a pack upgrade which it is clearly not.

The $3k pack upgrade price is for new orders placed in the design studio. No way anyone is getting a new 90kWh pack in place of their second hand 85kWh pack for less than a 5 digit $ number.

The offer to existing P85D owners is to upgrade them to ludicrousness without changing their pack capacity. The fuse is very accessible in the pack (not sure about the contactors) so I can easily believe that this can be done at the SC, without any swapping. Various trusted sources have told me that the resulting P85DL makes 0-60 in 2.9s instead of 2.8s for the 90kWh pack. Elon's blog article says that the performance and capacity changes are "unrelated" and he's almost right, though there is apparently a tiny performance difference between the P85DL and P90DL.

No new car ordered today can be specified as ludicrous without being 90kWh, and if you want to change the spec of a car already in the build queue the only way to get them to fit ludicrous fuses at the factory is to upgrade to 90kWh.

Chances are the first ludicrous car in customer hands will be a new P90DL (someone who was on the brink of going into production and who asked for their config to be changed), not an upgraded P85DL.

The one thing that I have not heard a clear definition on is what constitutes an "existing owner" in terms of eligibility for $5k + labor ludicrousness. Do you have to have had the car delivered? Built? Order confirmed? Nobody seems to be sure.

Of course all of this misses the most interesting thing in the whole call... Elon said that a car like this should have staggered wheels and that it makes 1g lateral when staggered and with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. I don't think that's a slip of the tongue... $100 says they're about to go back to staggered configuration for the P85/90D, but with Pilot SS tires rather than PS2, because Michelin are finally making the Pilot SS in the 265/35R21 size they need for the rear wheels.

 

[lolachampcar]

Fair enough.
1500 amps * 350 volts yields 525 KW
525 KW / 750 W/HP yields 700 hp so the ludicrous upgrade will allow the battery to deliver roughly 700 hp

I guess those that are interested will run it up the flag poll with Tesla (upgrade the car for free given you said you would deliver 691 hp yet your battery was limited to much less) and let us know how that conversation goes. If history is any indication, it will fall on nearly deaf ears.

 

[sorka]

The offer to existing P85D owners is to upgrade them to ludicrousness without changing their pack capacity. The fuse is very accessible in the pack (not sure about the contactors) so I can easily believe that this can be done at the SC, without any swapping. Various trusted sources have told me that the resulting P85DL makes 0-60 in 2.9s instead of 2.8s for the 90kWh pack. Elon's blog article says that the performance and capacity changes are "unrelated" and he's almost right, though there is apparently a tiny performance difference between the P85DL and P90DL.
.

Did they say how the 1/4 mile time was impacted? The reason I ask is I find it hard to believe that the 90 battery would draw less current than the 85. The use of silicon in the anode increases capacity but has several tradeoffs. First, anodes that contain silicon experience far more size delta when charging vs graphite only anodes. This makes them more susceptible to fracturing and it's particularly worse when you fully charge a lithium ion battery with a silicon anode. The other tradeoff off is even though the capacity increases, the maximum discharge rate decreases. Maybe they're only using a tiny bit of Silicon so these tradeoffs are very very minor, but I can't imagine the 90 battery would provide a high discharge rate.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Fair enough.
1500 amps * 350 volts yields 525 KW
525 KW / 750 W/HP yields 700 hp so the ludicrous upgrade will allow the battery to deliver roughly 700 hp

I guess those that are interested will run it up the flag poll with Tesla (upgrade the car for free given you said you would deliver 691 hp yet your battery was limited to much less) and let us know how that conversation goes. If history is any indication, it will fall on nearly deaf ears.

There's an interesting twist to this. Tesla is now claiming 259 hp front and 503 rear motor power. That adds up to 762 hp or 568kW (note Tesla did not add it up themselves).

I think the following math is closer. We know the peak voltage of the pack at 100% SOC is 402V (let's round to 400V for easy math). That means:
Old fuse: 1300A * 400V = 520kW
New fuse: 1500A * 400V = 600kW

So at 100% SOC even the old fuse is able to output the 515kW.

 

[Pollux]

Hi, @mgboyes,

Forgive a newbie question: what are the advantages of Pilot SS tires over PS2s?

I've been very happy with the staggered PS2s on my Aug 2013 P85+.

Thanks,
Alan

Of course all of this misses the most interesting thing in the whole call... Elon said that a car like this should have staggered wheels and that it makes 1g lateral when staggered and with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. I don't think that's a slip of the tongue... $100 says they're about to go back to staggered configuration for the P85/90D, but with Pilot SS tires rather than PS2, because Michelin are finally making the Pilot SS in the 265/35R21 size they need for the rear wheels.

 

[sorka]

The current 1300 amp fuse is only run up to 414kw at 100% soc. Is there a reason to think they'll run a much smaller margin? Maybe so because of the claim the e fuse is so much more precise as it doesn't depend on great to blow?

 

[tstafford]

The one thing that I have not heard a clear definition on is what constitutes an "existing owner" in terms of eligibility for $5k + labor ludicrousness. Do you have to have had the car delivered? Built? Order confirmed? Nobody seems to be sure.

I can tell you this with certainty - my DES confirms that my car is eligible and it was in production (testing actually) when the announcement was made. Hopefully that helps a little.

 

[brianman]

Forgive a newbie question: what are the advantages of Pilot SS tires over PS2s?

Michelin Pilot Super Sport vs. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - Make Driving Fun with Performance Tires Wheels | Tire Rack

The following are some of the key advantages of the Pilot Super Sport compared to the Pilot Sport PS2:

• More dry grip
• Improved fuel efficiency
• Extended treadwear
• Improved wet traction
• Faster steering response
• Reduced tire weight up to 10% compared to competitors
• Faster steering response

In addition, Michelin has priced the Pilot Super Sport a bit below that of the old Pilot Sport PS2 in many sizes, making the newer tire a great deal!

One of the wonderful advantages the blog post didn't include was:

Treadlife Warranty:
6 Years / 30,000 Miles
Half mileage for rear if different size than front

I went thru two sets of the PSS2's in 12,000 miles, which saved me ~60% off the replacement set each time.

 

[mgboyes]

Did they say how the 1/4 mile time was impacted? The reason I ask is I find it hard to believe that the 90 battery would draw less current than the 85. The use of silicon in the anode increases capacity but has several tradeoffs. First, anodes that contain silicon experience far more size delta when charging vs graphite only anodes. This makes them more susceptible to fracturing and it's particularly worse when you fully charge a lithium ion battery with a silicon anode. The other tradeoff off is even though the capacity increases, the maximum discharge rate decreases. Maybe they're only using a tiny bit of Silicon so these tradeoffs are very very minor, but I can't imagine the 90 battery would provide a high discharge rate.

Sorry I don't know any more details. Given the identical pack voltages and current limits it's not obvious where the 0.1 difference would come from.

- - - Updated - - -

I can tell you this with certainty - my DES confirms that my car is eligible and it was in production (testing actually) when the announcement was made. Hopefully that helps a little.

I've heard quite a few people who have been told things like this by Tesla employees. Unfortunately so far there are quite a few contradictions.

However I think your DS will turn out to be correct... but would like to see the full eligibility definitions to be sure.

- - - Updated - - -

Forgive a newbie question: what are the advantages of Pilot SS tires over PS2s?

The advantage in this case is the fact that Michelin still make them

The most likely reason that the staggered configuration went away is that Tesla can't get hold of PS2s in 265/35R21 anymore. They're effectively discontinued.

I've no idea about the performance characteristics, but Michelin would certainly have you believe that the SS's are "better".

But I believe the treadlife warranty on the Pilot SS is void with the Model S because of the amount of negative camber.

 

[Dave EV]

I think the following math is closer. We know the peak voltage of the pack at 100% SOC is 402V (let's round to 400V for easy math). That means:
Old fuse: 1300A * 400V = 520kW
New fuse: 1500A * 400V = 600kW

But there will be voltage sag at those types of current levels. You can guarantee that the pack will not be at 400V under 1300A+ of load.

Sorry I don't know any more details. Given the identical pack voltages and current limits it's not obvious where the 0.1 difference would come from.

It's quite possible that the P90 cells have lower resistance so voltage does not sag as much under load. More voltage = More power at the same current levels.

I believe sorka had a pdf that had some discharge curve of a silicon infused Panasonic cell that preformed better than the non-silicon cell. Can't find it at the moment, though.

 

[Pollux]

@brianman - thanks! You can bet I'll be talking over the Super Sports with my tire guy later this summer or early next spring...

Michelin Pilot Super Sport vs. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - Make Driving Fun with Performance Tires Wheels | Tire Rack


One of the wonderful advantages the blog post didn't include was:


I went thru two sets of the PSS2's in 12,000 miles, which saved me ~60% off the replacement set each time.