New fatal crash in Holland

[Garlan Garner]

Do we really need to start a new thread with every wreck, I think not.

I concur. Its not necessary.

 

[artsci]

I'm Dutch and am following the news. If you guys have any questions please do ask them.

First of al, I find it a tad tasteless to jump immediately to the question or even conclusions that AP was involved, that the driver fell asleep, or anything else. For all that's known now he might have had a heart attack or brain infarct, and been dead or dying before the actual accident occurred. A person just died, let's respect that and wait and see what investigations and autopsy tell us.

Secondly, Dutch firefighters are indeed aware and trained in how to deal with electric cars after setting up protocols starting in 2009. After Norway the Netherlands are the 2nd highest Tesla adoption market in Europe, so they are quite familiar with the Model S and have the schematics and relevant info in their rescue info tablets. In this case however they waited for a Tesla expert from the Tilburg factory / service center to advise them how to deal with this particular incident where:
a. The battery had been ruptured and torn in at least 2 pieces, with one half landing on the road and catching fire, which they managed to put out by covering it with dirt.
b. The driver was already confirmed dead, and they did not see any reason to put themselves at risk with half the battery still connected to the car somehow. Had the driver still been alive they would've risked their lives if needed to rescue him and wouldn't have taken 8 hours in total to get him out.
To my understanding only the part of the battery pack that was slung out unto the road caught fire, the car itself did not.

I'll try to keep you posted once I know more.

Thanks for your plea for moderation. With the battery torn to pieces this sounds like a dreadful accident.

 

[Jevi_S85D]

At 6am it seems it would be a dark deserted road running in a fairly straight line through a forest area.
The situation could lend itself to a speed much higher than 80 kmph. We'll see.

 

[Todd Burch]

Did the battery really fly out of a Tesla Model S during crash in Holland? [UPDATE]

UPDATE: Telsa sent us the following statement late on Wednesday: We are working with the authorities to establish the facts of the incident and offer our full cooperation. Thus far, we can confirm from the car's logs that Autopilot was not engaged at any time during the drive cycle and that, consistent with the damage that was observed after the vehicle struck the tree, the vehicle was being driven more than 155 kph.

Synopsis:

Autopilot in use? Not at all during the entire drive.
Impact speed? >100 mph (>155 kph).

All those shady reporters can initiate their article apologizing for sensationalizing what amounted to a run-of-the-mill high-speed accident fatality.

Oh wait...

 

[Fred Ward]

Not much damage to the car considering it hit a tree at 100 MPH.

 

[hill]

I found the location on Google Maps. The car would have been headed slightly north of due east. That's the direction in which the Sun would have been rising during early September. If the sky was clear and the Sun had recently risen, the driver or autopilot ....snip....

wait - did I not read the above well? It's known the S positively had AP? even though most old blue's were ordered prior to AP ?
This whole article seems to be overblown more than the 500' cliff fatality story.
Tesla Model S Plunges Off Cliff, Catches Fire, Fatality Reported
I don't recall everyone crawling out of the woodwork to speculate whether or not THAT MS had AP.
.

 

[Todd Burch]

Did the battery really fly out of a Tesla Model S during crash in Holland? [UPDATE]

Tesla confirmed autopilot was never used during the driving session, and the impact was at "more than 155 kph", so the wild speculation can end:

UPDATE: Telsa [sic] sent us the following statement late on Wednesday: We are working with the authorities to establish the facts of the incident and offer our full cooperation. Thus far, we can confirm from the car's logs that Autopilot was not engaged at any time during the drive cycle and that, consistent with the damage that was observed after the vehicle struck the tree, the vehicle was being driven more than 155 kph.

 

[hill]

Thank you.
Now the speculative nonsense will have to be, "must have gone into an epileptic seizure - jamming the pedal to the floor" and "tesla needs to install health monitors to make the vehicle avoid such things" even before an autopsy is completed.
(sigh)
.

 

[int32_t]

That is so sobering. Why can't people be a little more careful when they drive so this happens less often?

Leaving the emotional side *over there* for a moment ... look, I'd lick the car. Sit on it. Cut the top off. Whatever. Electricity flows from one terminal of the battery to the other, and the machine isn't grounded (i.e., floating, or no current path through ground). If you're not standing on (or licking) the one terminal, even if you touch the other, you won't get zapped. The only real electrical danger is cutting a high voltage wire, and those aren't going to move from the charge port and rear area to the A/B pillars just because of a crash. The other danger is common to all car crashes: the potential for fire. Unlike gasoline, though, this fire isn't able to flow or spill. It's going to stay right in the car if it happens at all. But again, you don't need to cut anywhere near the battery pack and we all know you have long enough to pull over, park, and get out even if something really bad does happen, so if I'm already wearing a fire-proof suit ... ample warning, I'd say.

 

[EVie'sDad]

Here are a few larger photos. Not sure if that is the older blue or newer blue though.

http://flip.it/IzOl3q

 

[Daniel 74]

The car was a 85d, as can be seen on the photographs.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Secondly, Dutch firefighters are indeed aware and trained in how to deal with electric cars
...
a. The battery had been ruptured and torn in at least 2 pieces, with one half landing on the road and catching fire, which they managed to put out by covering it with dirt.

I do have to question whether Dutch firefighters are correctly trained, as in both this case and the Supercharger fire a few months ago they did not douse the burning vehicle or battery with liberal amounts of water, per Tesla's first response guide. In both cases a concern over electrocution was noted. I'm wondering whether there is some ignorance at play here that "battery electric fire" + "water" = "electrocution" ... which is not the case at all.

Case in point - in the Mexico high speed drunk driving crash and subsequent fire a few years ago, a single firefighter extinguished the battery fire in 22 seconds by applying a constant stream of water to the fire, per Tesla's guide. No covering with dirt, no hosing down around the vehicle but letting it burn out as in the Netherlands cases.

I'm concerned there could be apprehension at play here on the part of firefighters to avoid applying water. This could cost someone their life in a future EV fire. I believe more training, better PR, and correction of this misconception in the media is warranted. If a lithium-ion battery is on fire, hose it down!

 

[voyager]

On Dutch radio, minutes ago: the Model S that crashed was speeding at 155 km/h, that's approx. 96 mph, and the auto-pilot was not activated.

 

[EVie'sDad]

Let's Face it, speed kills. Ignore it at your own peril.
two other notable accidents also not related to autopilot.

Extremely rare supercar worth $1.4 million destroyed after hitting curb in Mexico

San Jose man dies in crash of rented Ferrari

 

[wdolson]

wait - did I not read the above well? It's known the S positively had AP? even though most old blue's were ordered prior to AP ?
This whole article seems to be overblown more than the 500' cliff fatality story.
Tesla Model S Plunges Off Cliff, Catches Fire, Fatality Reported
I don't recall everyone crawling out of the woodwork to speculate whether or not THAT MS had AP.
.

The news reports did say it was a 2013 Tesla, which was pre-Autopilot.

Though the media's hair trigger speculation about another Autopilot crash started with the accident in Florida followed by some people claiming to be on AP when they had an accident. Now every Tesla accident starts with the speculation the car was on AP.

The bad news as more Teslas hit the road is that there will be more accidents and more people will die. It's a statistical certainty. If every accident with a Toyota Camry got the coverage Tesla gets, CNN would be running Camry accident stories 24/7 and probably not cover them all. Even if they limited themselves to fatal accidents it would probably fill all their air time.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

The first photos of the accident, which include parts of the battery still on fire, show that it was pre-dawn, I think the accident was about 6AM.

My interpretation of those photos was that someone had thrown a couple of lit warning flares onto the road.

 

[Daniel 74]

The news reports did say it was a 2013 Tesla, which was pre-Autopilot.

Then we may conclude that news reports aren't always right on facts. It was a 85d as can be seen nu the badge, hence it had autopilot. However, tesla has stated UT wasn't turned on.

 

[Todd Burch]

Initial speculation was that it was a 2013. It was later confirmed to be a 2015 with autopilot.

 

[thegruf]

Thoughts are with the driver's family.
These are high performance cars, use wisely and stay safe folks.

 

[Ivo-G]

I do have to question whether Dutch firefighters are correctly trained, as in both this case and the Supercharger fire a few months ago they did not douse the burning vehicle or battery with liberal amounts of water, per Tesla's first response guide. In both cases a concern over electrocution was noted. I'm wondering whether there is some ignorance at play here that "battery electric fire" + "water" = "electrocution" ... which is not the case at all.

Case in point - in the Mexico high speed drunk driving crash and subsequent fire a few years ago, a single firefighter extinguished the battery fire in 22 seconds by applying a constant stream of water to the fire, per Tesla's guide. No covering with dirt, no hosing down around the vehicle but letting it burn out as in the Netherlands cases.

I'm concerned there could be apprehension at play here on the part of firefighters to avoid applying water. This could cost someone their life in a future EV fire. I believe more training, better PR, and correction of this misconception in the media is warranted. If a lithium-ion battery is on fire, hose it down!

1. The Supercharger fire happened in Norway, not the Netherlands.

2. It's easy to stand by the sideline and criticize or doubt those rushing in to help others. In a time and age where most people only take out their phones to film and photograph accidents but otherwise do nothing, these firefighters have to make choices regarding their own lives as well. Do they risk theirs to prevent material damage, or to rescue a person who's already dead, or do they take extra precautions for their own safety?
Had the person(s) been alive, I can assure you they would've gone in anyways, electrocution risk or not.

3. They are and were properly trained, to work with a wreck that they can handle. They know where and how to cut to disable the power connections. In this case however, even those connections weren't reachable / usable / dependable with regards to safety.