My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD

[GeorgeSymonds]

Thanks, I'm watching the thread now and best of luck to you!

I hope you don't mind me reproducing the paragraph below from your lawyers' letter, I think it's relevant to the UK litigation:

"It is plainly unreasonable that a customer should have to wait more than four years for a product it has already paid for to be supplied, even if that product was “upcoming”. According to the English dictionary, the word “upcoming” means “about to happen”, “happening soon” or “forthcoming”. It cannot be reasonably argued that FSD was “about to happen”, “happening
soon” or has been “forthcoming” in the context of a customer purchasing a product and
expecting to receive that product soon when that customer does not receive the product after four years."

You could add from the RAC foundation that most new cars are traded within 4 years of first ownership.

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/car-ownership-in-great-britain-leibling-171008-report.pdf

On that basis, “upcoming” hasn’t even fallen within the life span of the majority of new car buyers.

 

[jaykaye]

Thanks, I'm watching the thread now and best of luck to you!

I hope you don't mind me reproducing the paragraph below from your lawyers' letter, I think it's relevant to the UK litigation:

"It is plainly unreasonable that a customer should have to wait more than four years for a product it has already paid for to be supplied, even if that product was “upcoming”. According to the English dictionary, the word “upcoming” means “about to happen”, “happening soon” or “forthcoming”. It cannot be reasonably argued that FSD was “about to happen”, “happening
soon” or has been “forthcoming” in the context of a customer purchasing a product and
expecting to receive that product soon when that customer does not receive the product after four years."

No problems! and thanks

 

[Evil-The-Cat]

I realised it was going to probably depreciate more in the time Ill wait for a judgement than if I just sold it now, so away it went. Got 35k for it (22 plate, 10k miles, FSD on there). Massive loss, but man it feels nice to drive something that doesn't constantly sound the forward collision alarm, doesn't slam on the brakes randomly, can actually just let me change lane and reengage autopilot automatically, and has functioning auto park. Good riddance, first and last Tesla.
My only correspondence I got back from them when I complained about FSD and asked for a refund was an email telling me how good my enhanced auto pilot features were and how they will keep improving. I replied explaining I wanted a refund from EAP to FSD upgrade and while EAP is pretty crippled, it does actually do SOMETHING. Going to just see where this one goes, no doubt another generic reply is all Ill get and then I'll leave it be since I don't even have the car anymore.

 

[Pagemakers]

I realised it was going to probably depreciate more in the time Ill wait for a judgement than if I just sold it now, so away it went. Got 35k for it (22 plate, 10k miles, FSD on there). Massive loss, but man it feels nice to drive something that doesn't constantly sound the forward collision alarm, doesn't slam on the brakes randomly, can actually just let me change lane and reengage autopilot automatically, and has functioning auto park. Good riddance, first and last Tesla.
My only correspondence I got back from them when I complained about FSD and asked for a refund was an email telling me how good my enhanced auto pilot features were and how they will keep improving. I replied explaining I wanted a refund from EAP to FSD upgrade and while EAP is pretty crippled, it does actually do SOMETHING. Going to just see where this one goes, no doubt another generic reply is all Ill get and then I'll leave it be since I don't even have the car anymore.

Sorry if I missed it. What did you replace it with?

 

[yessuz]

Sorry if I missed it. What did you replace it with?

by the description - more or less anything in the market...

 

[Evil-The-Cat]

I think I over shot a little on my reaction, I got the 3L Ranger Raptor. It’s awesome, obviously costs a lot more to run but everything just works and I don’t worry about the kerb anymore, the kerb worries about me.

 

[Evil-The-Cat]

I should probably expand a little. The lane keep assist has been flawless, the proper blind spot monitoring is lovely and cross traffic alerts when reversing also a nice plus. 360 camera great. Auto wipers and auto high beams that just work. It’s this feeling of being in a real vehicle again, not a half baked tech experiment. Don’t even get me started on physical buttons and a dashboard! The Tesla drive train is spectacular but the rest just slowly wore me down over the two years I owned it.

 

[Rooster6655]

I should probably expand a little. The lane keep assist has been flawless, the proper blind spot monitoring is lovely and cross traffic alerts when reversing also a nice plus. 360 camera great. Auto wipers and auto high beams that just work. It’s this feeling of being in a real vehicle again, not a half baked tech experiment. Don’t even get me started on physical buttons and a dashboard! The Tesla drive train is spectacular but the rest just slowly wore me down over the two years I owned it.

Yep, it makes a big difference driving a car that has radar and you can actually use the traffic aware cruise control without it doing phantom braking all the time

 

[Dilly]

I should probably expand a little. The lane keep assist has been flawless, the proper blind spot monitoring is lovely and cross traffic alerts when reversing also a nice plus. 360 camera great. Auto wipers and auto high beams that just work. It’s this feeling of being in a real vehicle again, not a half baked tech experiment. Don’t even get me started on physical buttons and a dashboard! The Tesla drive train is spectacular but the rest just slowly wore me down over the two years I owned it.

I think you summed it up perfectly. The drive train is unsurpassed. P2D is a bonus as is a smart phone key. But the all the important stuff that goes into a car just doesn’t work properly!

 

[Drew57]

But the all the important stuff that goes into a car just doesn’t work properly!

I think you are being a bit hard on yourself there

 

[ACarneiro]

I'll leave it be since I don't even have the car anymore.

I think it would be perfectly legitimate to still pursue a refund even if you don’t have the car anymore.
If you can be bothered, of course

 

[Durzel]

I think it would be perfectly legitimate to still pursue a refund even if you don’t have the car anymore.
If you can be bothered, of course

You’re right, but a potential wrinkle is that if the car was sold with FSD, as seems likely, then the presumption is that it added a non-zero amount of money to the sale. Tesla would presumably claim the full amount, or a sizeable proportion.

At this point trying to claim the value of FSD back from Tesla would be like having your cake and eating it too.

Potentially messy. I say this because it seems obvious @Evil-The-Cat gave up with claiming, which is a shame, but I can understand why people might do it. Tesla of course are banking on this.

 

[debrooker]

The Tesla drive train is spectacular but the rest just slowly wore me down over the two years I owned it.

Know the feeling

 

[ACarneiro]

then the presumption is that it added a non-zero amount of money to the sale.

Surely, then, the onus would be on Tesla to come up with how much exactly that value was?
My understanding is that FSD really has very little value in the second-hand market, although I agree that this would open a whole other line of argument which could prove time-consuming and rather costly...

 

[Pagemakers]

You don’t got any idea of the value when trading in with Tesla

 

[KennethS]

I think it would be perfectly legitimate to still pursue a refund even if you don’t have the car anymore.
If you can be bothered, of course

Isn't there an issue if the car is now in someone else's ownership and sold with FSD? If Tesla were to refund the FSD (or EAP) cost to the original purchaser it seems to me they would be within their rights to then remove it from the car? How would the new owner feel about that?

 

[ACarneiro]

Isn't there an issue if the car is now in someone else's ownership and sold with FSD? If Tesla were to refund the FSD (or EAP) cost to the original purchaser it seems to me they would be within their rights to then remove it from the car? How would the new owner feel about that?

Yes, of course.
Yet another "better to remain silent and let people think you're an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt" moment from me...

This forum can be quite humbling, one of the reasons why I like it

 

[Dilly]

You don’t got any idea of the value when trading in with Tesla

View attachment 1026053

We can assume that the car is worth £24K because FSD IS worth £0

 

[Evil-The-Cat]

I talked to my solicitor pal and he said I’d need to own it when I filed the small claims court motion. Something about “having interest” and “releasing interest” when selling. Happy enough to just let it go and move on, but also hope they are class action sued into bankruptcy over FSD eventually.

 

[NewbieT]

I’m not sure this is about punishment or making Tesla bankrupt. A UK GLO doesn’t seem likely if it hasn’t already happened and Tesla has put aside the money to pay out anyway it’s not going to bankrupt it.

I do hope it goes some way to warn firms trading in the UK about the risks associated with being accused of mis-selling. Whether you choose to defend a claim or settle one, such behaviour does alienate your customer base - which isn’t a great long term strategy.