speedyranger74
Member
Yes was ( I paid yesterday the last 18k to Black Horse).
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My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD
- Thread starter edb49
- Start date
Case Management
HMCTS | County Court at Manchester | 1 Bridge Street West | Manchester | M60 9DJ
Phone: 0300 123 5577 | Email: [email protected]
Um. So, I'm over on the left side of the pond. And this thread is all about having fun and.. maybe recompense in the UK court system. For, as I understand it, false promises made about the availability of FSD. I get it, it's 'way late.
But.. those of us over here are now playing with FSD 12.3.3, whose id numbers are rapidly incrementing these days. And, while it's not quite Ready For Prime Time, it's a heck of a lot closer than its ever been. Some of the traditional nay-sayers on the threads here are actually making mumbly noises about robo-taxies, and not in the far distant future, either. Which is a bit scary.
So, when FSD in all its true self-driving glory actually does show up, which is looking likelier by the minute these days.. what are you guys going to do?
Just curious.
But.. those of us over here are now playing with FSD 12.3.3, whose id numbers are rapidly incrementing these days. And, while it's not quite Ready For Prime Time, it's a heck of a lot closer than its ever been. Some of the traditional nay-sayers on the threads here are actually making mumbly noises about robo-taxies, and not in the far distant future, either. Which is a bit scary.
So, when FSD in all its true self-driving glory actually does show up, which is looking likelier by the minute these days.. what are you guys going to do?
Just curious.
speedyranger74
Member
ACarneiro
Active Member
Why, buy it if it suits us of course!
It's odd, your question seems to imply that this is somehow an ideological persecution of Tesla and these people are getting "revenge" against a company they now hate.
Maybe that is true for a minority. In my view this is simply consumer protection at work.
I think (obviously it's my opinion as I have no hard data to back up my claim) most of the people who are now miffed are still quite interested in the concept of FSD and automated driving otherwise they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. They just feel they're not getting what they paid for.
Once what they were promised actually works (and in the UK it doesn't seem to be happening any time soon), then why not buy it?
Yeah, well, everybody’s making fun of the name.
But there’s something odd happening: when one downloads and installs the latest FSD(S)-enabled version on a car that heretofore hasn’t had FSD installed, there’s this bit in the release notes where, up to now, one is warned that FSD is dangerous and one must stay alert and all that. And after one has finished reading all that, after dismissing the release notes, one has to go to the Autopilot menu, tap on this button for FSD, then get presented with some serious warnings, again, about how one must Be Alert, with the phrase, ‘The car will do the wrong thing at the worst time.’ And then, up to now, one must tap an “Accept” button saying that one has read all this and will be diligent about watching out for errors.
And they weren’t kidding. With older versions of FSD(B), I’ve personally seen the car attempt to run red lights, stop signs, shift lanes into adjacent cars, get stuck on traffic circles, not respect yield signs, and all that.
But, on this 2024.3.10 release with FSD(S) 12.3.3, there’s no Dire Warnings in the release notes. Pay attention, yes.
But FSD(S) is simply Turned On. No additional dire warnings and no Accept button. That’s Different.
People are reporting the occasional error, yes. But they’re also reporting ridiculously long drives sans interventions, a flurry of point releases with notable improvements in each one, and long term naysayers are making mumbly noises about Robotaxi in a year, where before they were talking Never or the Heat Death of the Universe.
Which brings us back to this thread. Nothing’s certain on FSD, of course, which resembles a research project (motto: running up alleys to see if they’re blind), but things are looking more likely than they have in ages. Tesla’s late with their promised features, sure. And regulators on the right side of the pond have, as I understand it, forbidden the tech until it appears like Venus on the Half Shell, fully done with No Errors At All. (Or at least until a European Competitor has something better.)
But you guys will have won your lawsuits? And will no longer have access to the cheaper FSD package?
ACarneiro
Active Member
You need to remember that you're in a UK subforum and your experiences are very different to our own.
There has been precious little progress in FSD's performance over the last 5 years over here. We're most certainly not seeing anything like what you're describing.
I guess it makes sense for Tesla to invest in its own native country first, then other RHD countries and THEN LHD countries and all their own specific quirks (of which there are many in the UK), but that in no way detracts from the fact that it promoted, advertised and sold a product that someone people think hasn't been delivered (and it seems the courts are possibly agreeing with that point of view as well).
With regards to your snarky comment about Venus; Point taken, but just because we are taking a different approach doesn't necessarily mean we are wrong. Simply that we have different priorities. Your priority is to make it work even if it kills a few people in the process. Ours is to minimise injury and loss of life insofar as reasonable even if it slows down the rollout of the new tech. You approach leads to innovation, ours leads to safety but stagnation. Prices to pay, and a narrow path to tread. I don't envy politicians making these calls.
My view (and, I guess, expectedly as I'm a European) is that the stakes for FSD are not high enough that it is worth deploying an "unsafe" (I almost hesitate to use the word here, as it is a fairly provocative one) technology to a large number of people and sacrificing safety for innovation. Perhaps that is more of a reflection of my own lack of imagination of what FSD can bring to the table and perhaps that explains more why the vast majority of new tech comes from the US and not from Europe.
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Our regulators and regulations mean we already have safety levels that musk initially aspired to for FSD (double the US average which he quotes). Our regulators have also allowed true commercial level 3 driving, something the US haven’t, and whilst to date it’s very limited, it exists, and the limitations are set to relax as evidence builds. It’s less about European wanting to wait until perfect, it’s more a case of following a different roadmap.
The name change to FSD (supervised) and dropping the beta word also suggests to me, this is it, FSD is and in the current cars always will be “FSD (supervised)” and won’t become “FSD (unsupervised)”. Sometimes the most obvious things stare you in the face but some don’t want to see it.
The name change to FSD (supervised) and dropping the beta word also suggests to me, this is it, FSD is and in the current cars always will be “FSD (supervised)” and won’t become “FSD (unsupervised)”. Sometimes the most obvious things stare you in the face but some don’t want to see it.
To speak to this point, if we’d got some version of what America has had for the past few years I’d have been satisfied.
No one forced Tesla to proclaim that FSD (Beta) would be “Coming later this year”, they did that all by themselves. They are more informed about the status and limitations of UNECE regulations than any customer, so it is reasonable to take their promises at face value.
The simple lesson here is don’t promise things you can’t deliver.
My car has just recently turned 4 years old. I got FSD when I bought it. They are at this point 3 1/4 years late in delivering it.
Zilla91
Active Member
My car was delivered in September 2019 and “autosteer on city streets” was promised by the end of that year. Which is why I took Tesla to court for a refund for a service that I paid for in good faith but didn’t receive.
This basically.
Most people in the U.K. only keep their cars for 4 years, you simply have money to burn for not getting a refund on something you didn’t receive on a car which is likely to be sold to someone else in the near future, if not already.
FSD transfers have only been a thing here once and it was very limited. Nor are they an excuse for promising something you can’t deliver. It’s also illegal to sell something you can’t deliver in the U.K…
Pagemakers
Active Member
And to further add insult to injury, autopilot was far better 3 years ago than it is today in the UK.
I'm not sure I agree with this, or
To be fair I'm looking at AP rather than FSD as sold in the UK, but AP is demonstrably better than it was in 2019, and I know that FSB people got the drive through lights feature at some point.
Not disagreeing with your point otherwise (I think everyone that has is absolutely right to be looking for a refund), just saying keep an eye for the hyperbole creeping in.
I do wonder if the new FSD (supervised) implies an incoming (unsupervised), either as a general upgrade, or a new pricing tier, possibly tied to updated HW?
Pagemakers
Active Member
3 years ago I’d have the odd phantom braking for obvious reasons. Now I expect it when overtaking every half a dozen cars.
3 years ago auto lane changes worked flawlessly. Now, 20% of the time it gets cancelled half way through the lane change at 70+ mph.
3 years ago I wasn’t nagged every few minutes with blocked and blinded camera warnings and lane departure warnings.
3 years ago I had auto-park. Now I am offered it very rarely.
3 years ago I had summon that was terrible. Now I have no summon at all.
3 years ago I had crap wipers. Today I have crap wipers.
3 years ago my car wouldn’t indicate and swerve off the motorway at some junctions and then swerve back into lane when it’s realised it was wrong.
3 years ago I wasn’t told off by the car and have all my paid for goodies removed for a week if I spent too much time looking at the information screen.
Yep, for me autopilot (FSD) was far better 3 years ago.
Zilla91
Active Member
Yet after all of this, you’re still going to buy a new Model 3
Pagemakers
Active Member
Yes I am. Crazy isn’t it. If I didn’t like the car I wouldn’t buy a 3rd. For me there’s nothing in the same price bracket that does it for me. I’m sure if I had a Volvo or a Polstar their forums would be full of the same but different complaints.Yet after all of this, you’re still going to buy a new Model 3
Obviously I like the Tesla 3 a lot but I wish the stuff I paid for worked and Tesla Europe spent a little more time enhancing their product for it’s customers.
Pagemakers
Active Member
First 2 cars had FSD. The one on order has EAP (the PCP cost difference is marginal).. Presumably without FSB this time...
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