Model X vs Audi Q8 etron with 430 miles

[ecomento]

Hi there,


This is Richard, deputy editor of ecomento.com. I wanted to quickly answer some of your questions:


The source article from AutoBild is supposed to be in last week's issue of the print magazine and was only teased on the Bild.de website. It seems that nobody really picked that up until now.


The 'e-tron' moniker was originally for concept cars and then subsequently envisaged to label purely electric vehicles. Audi however changed its strategy and stopped the production of the nearly production-ready R8 e-tron (rumors/confirmation is spreading that it will be revived soon though) and announced a new vehicle range with the A3 e-tron plug-in hybrid instead. The company's image as one of the most innovative car manufacturers suffered quite a bit as a result - especially in Germany. The e-tron name does now, however, apply to both pure EVs (the R8 e-tron) and PHEVs (A3 Sportback e-tron).


Bild.de actually stated 700km as the supposed range.


Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!

 

[VolkerP]

Have to retrace my words a bit. Let's not fret about that 430mi / 700km number. Remember you must aim high.

The big thing is that with that electric Q8 thing Audi adds to public perception that "EVs are for real now". We here already know but let that sink in a little. The public starts to learn it. More and more car manufacturers publish EV concepts, design ideas, prototypes, even compliance cars, that are not in the "glorified golf car" category any more. Hard for an entrenched BMW fan to dismiss EVS now that there is the i3 and i8. Hard for a Volvo fan now there is the C30. Hard for a Merc fan now there is the B-class and SLS AMG e-cell. You get it. Hopefully, now Audi got it, too. :wink:

After all not my insight but Robert LLewellyn's: The LlewBlog - Electric Cars - I Think it May HaveTipped.

 

[mrdoubleb]

OK, so I haven't read all the posts, so I do not know if our German members have pointed this out, but Bild is a major tabloid magazine. Fact checking and in depth automotive expertise are usually not the biggest virtues of tabloids...

Having said that, let's say Audi really plans to intorduce a 480 mile range 100k+ EUR car. As far as I know the target is 2017-2018. Tesla is at 300 miles using a battery designed 3-4 years ago. It is just a matter of time before they announce an upgrade. So where will they be in 2017? Oh wait, I know: they'll have a 35k car with at least 200 miles of range. Want to bet they can match anything anyone throws at them in terms of range in 2017?

And then there is charging. Charging time is already a big ace up Tesla's sleeve. Not saying others will not improve charge times, but the Superchargers are also going to evolve from the huge technological advantage they already have today.

Besides, the most amazing part is that every time Audi, BMW or Mercedes announces a new car/prototype these days, the articles start comparing them to Teslas. That is just unbelieveable. Try starting a software company and hold your breath until every new article on MS or Apple compares their flagship product to yours... Go and build a new airplane and see how long it takes every headline on the A380 will mention you as a competitor. Tesla went from "what-la?" to the thing to beat in a 3 years without spending a dime on it. Unreal... but very cool. :biggrin:

 

[brianman]

Looks like a Tesla that has been heavily photoshopped. Hood is very Tesla looking. Seats too.

They didn't even fully remove the turn signal triangles. lol

 

[EchoDelta]

Hi there,


This is Richard, deputy editor of ecomento.com. I wanted to quickly answer some of your questions:


The source article from AutoBild is supposed to be in last week's issue of the print magazine and was only teased on the Bild.de website. It seems that nobody really picked that up until now.


The 'e-tron' moniker was originally for concept cars and then subsequently envisaged to label purely electric vehicles. Audi however changed its strategy and stopped the production of the nearly production-ready R8 e-tron (rumors/confirmation is spreading that it will be revived soon though) and announced a new vehicle range with the A3 e-tron plug-in hybrid instead. The company's image as one of the most innovative car manufacturers suffered quite a bit as a result - especially in Germany. The e-tron name does now, however, apply to both pure EVs (the R8 e-tron) and PHEVs (A3 Sportback e-tron).


Bild.de actually stated 700km as the supposed range.


Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!

Thanks. Is there a way to see the full article or get some additional sources/references? Maybe someone in germany can tell us what the print article said?

 

[ecomento]

Thanks. Is there a way to see the full article or get some additional sources/references? Maybe someone in germany can tell us what the print article said?

Hi EchoDelta,


No problem at all. This piece was the cover story for Autobild Nr.2 2014. We’ve not been able to get hold of a hard copy but there is an iPad issue, the front cover of which we’ve linked at the foot of the article.


All-electric Audi Q8 e-tron poised to challenge Tesla Model X in 2015 with 430-mile range? | ecomento.com


We’ve also been able to find out some more details and the article has been updated accordingly –


Internally the project is inventively known as ‘Tesla-Fighter’.


The car will be a derivative of the upcoming Q8, which will be a luxury coupé with a raised driving position (perhaps sometime along the lines of the BMW X6). The Q8 itself will supposedly be based on the current Q7 SUV underpinnings. It will also feature an aluminium space-frame to keep weight down, while the raised ride height leaves plenty of room for batteries. (Presumably this means the Q8 e-tron would have a 'surfboard' battery arrangement like the Model S).


Somewhat ambiguously, AutoBild also says that those batteries will represent a new generation of power dense batteries with high durability (we assume that means a resistance to capacity degradation) and a range of 600-700km. The batteries will supply very powerful/torque-rich electric motors – AutoBild doesn’t say how many. (Would it be more powerful than even a P85?)


Lastly, the Q8 e-tron will unsurprisingly borrow performance tech from the R8 e-tron, including torque vectoring – so, again, theoretically we can also deduce that it will have four-wheel drive.


I hope this clears things up a bit, but if there’s anything else we can find out just ask.


Thanks


Richard

 

[VolkerP]

OK, it's on the Bild.de website, not Autobild.de
http://www.bild.de/auto/auto-news/audi-modelle/elektroauto-q8-700-km-reichweite-34126122.bild.html

Translation:

Vorsprung durch Technik? According to AUTO BILD (issue 2/2014), Audi plans an electric version of the future AWD Q8.

One charge is supposed to take you 700km. The Bavarians want to disrupt start up Tesla (USA), who bring an off road "Model X" (with a range of 550km) to the market already in 2015.

But the electric Q8 won't be under 100.000 Euros.

Edit: no this is not translation of the print article, just the teaser. I won't waste even a dime on anything that has written "BILD" on its title page.

 

[ecomento]

'Tesla Fighter' confirmed - just to let you all know that Autocar has 'confirmed' the Q8 e-tron is this week's print edition. There's some interesting new details including a lower range than Bild had reported and some technology-sharing with the R8 e-tron due this year...

confirmed: Electric Audi Q8 e-tron gets production green light with 370-mile range | ecomento.com

 

[WarpedOne]

Autocar quotes a real-world range of 370 miles for the Audi Q8 e-tron, which, while smaller than the 430 miles touted in Bild, is still comfortably more than anything else on the road today, Tesla Model S included. The Audi Q8 e-tron is anticipated to use an 80kWh battery pack at the very least, with the assumption that by the time Audi launches the model in 2017 battery technology will have moved on considerably.

370 miles with 80kWh? Who are they kiddin'?
80kWh in a big SUV cow gives you a ~200 mile range.
370 miles demands more than 150 kWh. It ain't gonna happen in this decade.

 

[Martini]

It's been said before that Tesla CAN put more batteries/range into the vehicles, but they felt 300miles was the sweet spot. At the very least, this should push Tesla to make more expensive range options available.

Reminds me a bit of Steve Jobs saying back in the day that there was no demand for a 7" iPad. When the facts on the ground change, you had better change with them. Anyhow, trying to beat the 2014 version of Tesla in 2018 ignores the fact that Tesla will be on its 2nd generation of tech by then. Tough to catch up in a constantly innovating market! SpaceX is doing the same thing to its competition.

 

[brianman]

370 miles with 80kWh? Who are they kiddin'?
80kWh in a big SUV cow gives you a ~200 mile range.
370 miles demands more than 150 kWh. It ain't gonna happen in this decade.

I think you're overreacting.

The article says at least 80 kWh. It also says 2017 battery technology. Finally, it quotes the Model S ideal range of 300 miles in the context of the Model X.

Taking all of this together, if battery technology improves for Tesla it's not crazy to think about a 300 -> 400 mile shift in the Model S and Model X capability by 2017. Presumably, for Audi the same battery technology could take them to a(n "ideal") 370 mile range without heroics.

 

[AnOutsider]

Good to see more corroboration on the reports. I suspect if they match Tesla on range (or even come in just below), Audi could still do well considering the brand recognition (and the fact that their interior quality far surpasses anything Tesla has done). Interesting times ahead.

 

[Nubo]

Reminds me a bit of Steve Jobs saying back in the day that there was no demand for a 7" iPad. When the facts on the ground change, you had better change with them. Anyhow, trying to beat the 2014 version of Tesla in 2018 ignores the fact that Tesla will be on its 2nd generation of tech by then. Tough to catch up in a constantly innovating market! SpaceX is doing the same thing to its competition.

Actually, Audi's (potential) entry reminds me of another bit of Apple history circa 1981:

 

[AnOutsider]

Actually, Audi's (potential) entry reminds me of another bit of Apple history circa 1981:

View attachment 42212

That DOES seem more fitting. I also now get why Apple's logot has the bite out of it that it currently does.

 

[AMN]

That DOES seem more fitting. I also now get why Apple's logot has the bite out of it that it currently does.

The bite mark is supposedly the tribute to Alan Turing who was poisoned by an apple.
He was behind the prototype of the modern-day personal computer and was also behind cracking the Nazi wartime encryption algorithm. That makes him one of those people who changed the course of recent human history. Almost like Justin Bieber or PSY.

 

[SteveG3]

Actually, Audi's (potential) entry reminds me of another bit of Apple history circa 1981:

View attachment 42212

Precisely, I don't think any of us doubt that Elon was being sincere when he says he wants competition, the whole point of Tesla is to catalyze the industry. Almost spooky if you read through the Apple ad how accurate it was and how similar to Elon's sense of mission.

I think this is very exciting. If Audi goes in, to me it seems sort of like an unspoken stonewalling of EVs (other than compliance cars) among the incumbent automakers starting to crumble... no offense to Leaf fans.

As a shareholder does it make me nervous? first moment a little... but it really has turned to excitement. Really good EVs wont erode Tesla's market share, they'll erode ICE market share. Of course, an EV that leapfrogged Tesla would be scary as an investor, but this possible new entrant is not a leapfrog. In this thread the price has been suggested at about $130,000, the timeframe 2017, the range about 370 miles. I'm pretty confident Tesla can offer the S and X with that level of range in 2017 for basically the cost of the current 85 kWh Model S. So as I see it, it's win for Elon and Tesla's mission, and win for those of us long TSLA.

Just hope they follow through, and the domino effect hits other automakers!

 

[evme]

I see no reason why Audi would not be able to pull it off. Tesla has a range of 310 miles(265 EPA miles) in 2012 on the Model S with a price tag of 80k. By 2017 there is no reason why Audi would not be able to get 370 miles(316 EPA miles?) by 2017 for 130k.

 

[VolkerP]

Audi tried but failed to build a car in 2012 that could compete with the 2008 Tesla Roadster. To me, this speaks volumes about Audi's EV competence.

 

[scott2613]

There are a couple of small problems for Audi. Regular service and maintenance. They sell through dealers who survive on service. When an Audi is worked on or damaged getting everything electrical to function properly usually requires a trip back to the dealer to have various error codes cleared and computer configurations reset. Some things can be done by any repair facility but not all. They have become more reliable mechanically but they would have to radically change their design philosophy to make them require less of the service their dealers depend on for survival. The problem with that is then dealers won't want to sell them. Compare this to Tesla: "The best service is no service" and "no regularly scheduled maintenance". One other problem for them and others as well is structural. Automakers are good at the mechanical aspect of the vehicle. The technology is mature and anyone like Tesla can access the best of it. Tesla's focus is advanced software. In their investor presentation posted elsewhere here they state it's their core focus and DNA. As any owner among us knows, this is what really differentiates them and is something that other auto makers will find difficult to understand, much less compete with. At least in the short term. Still, It would be nice to see an all electric Audi. They are beautiful and well made vehicles.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Audi's plan amounts to vaporware right now. Even assuming that they can build such a vehicle in 4 years, we have no idea how much it will cost and how well it will drive.

Without a Supercharger network Audi and everyone else for that matter is going to be a tough sell.