Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[Trompazo]

Not sure how a Tesla MS Plaid oem brakes discussion turned into a MS Plaid tracking thread? Anyhow, my RB brakes are certainly better than oem rotors & pads for the street; the difference is significant. I have no idea about performance on the track as I use my MS Plaid as a DD and won't ever track the vehicle.

I ordered the same pads, and they arrive today. We will be trying them on the stock rotors.

I suspect a lot of the issues people are having on the street are the pads only.

We will see I guess.

 

[lbowroom]

Not sure how a Tesla MS Plaid oem brakes discussion turned into a MS Plaid tracking thread? Anyhow, my RB brakes are certainly better than oem rotors & pads for the street; the difference is significant. I have no idea about performance on the track as I use my MS Plaid as a DD and won't ever track the vehicle.

Natural progression of conversation about brake requirements across the board. The stock brakes stop the car as well as any other in a one time panic stop so calling them terrible has to be qualified by use case.

 

[sflgator]

Natural progression of conversation about brake requirements across the board. The stock brakes stop the car as well as any other in a one time panic stop so calling them terrible has to be qualified by use case.

Except that maybe, perhaps just 2% of TMC MS Plaid owners will be tracking their Plaids. The vast majority only cares about slowing/stopping more efficiently from higher speeds and/or in emergency situations on the street. If I wanted a "track car," I wouldn't have sold my modded '12 GT-R back in 2019.

 

[Trompazo]

Except that maybe, perhaps just 2% of TMC MS Plaid owners will be tracking their Plaids. The vast majority only cares about slowing/stopping more efficiently from higher speeds and/or in emergency situations on the street. If I wanted a "track car," I wouldn't have sold my modded '12 GT-R back in 2019.

The rotors and the pads are not can have any effect on emergency situations on the street.

That is 100% tires assuming the pads have enough force to activate ABS, which they do.

 

[sflgator]

The rotors and the pads are not can have any effect on emergency situations on the street.

That is 100% tires assuming the pads have enough force to activate ABS, which they do.

Have you tried to slow your MS Plaid down (with the oem brake rotors & pads) from high speeds on the track and/or in Mexico of course ? It's not a good feeling. See how you feel doing this with higher performance, different compound pads? Although I still suspect the oem rotors just cannot handle the higher heat either (just like the oem brake pads).

 

[Trompazo]

Have you tried to slow your MS Plaid down (with the oem brake rotors & pads) from high speeds on the track and/or in Mexico of course ? It's not a good feeling. See how you feel doing this with higher performance, different compound pads? Although I still suspect the oem rotors just cannot handle the higher heat either (just like the oem brake pads).

Yes. Initially, it stops okay but the pedal feels like mush. At that point the rotor has very little heat in them so that issue is expected to be pads. This would be what you referred to as emergency stopping.

After slowing down for about 4 Repetitive Cheetah launches up to 120 miles an hour, there is definite fade. I assume this is a pad and Rotor issue. But any streetcar is going to give you fade when you do that.

I am starting with pads first.

Then will likely go to rotors, but I do not feel there is benefit to be had with stock sized 2 piece rotors. They are lighter, but to have a great effect on brake fade it will need as big rotor as possible.

New calibers are a possibility so you can get wider rotor in there.

 

[Gninoked]

I would say though, and I have been modifying street cars for over 20 years for track use, that any platform has its limits. In most cases, there is no point in sinking a lot of dollars modifying a car, and you can buy something else that would be better and faster out of the box.

When the Subaru STI came out in 2004, I sunk a horrific amount of money into it to try to make it into a 600 whp Road course car. I quickly learned that it was a stupid idea. I have eventually just bought a C6 Z06, put on Penskes/Brembos and Hoosiers and it was enormously faster and reliable.

The same goes for the Plaid. A few suspension mods, and fix the brakes and see how it goes. I have only had it for 2 weeks, but it is a great daily driver, and there is no point in ruining it for a few track days.

My current plan is to fix the brakes, put on upper front control arms for camber, and bigger wheels/tires. I may consider the upcoming Unplugged Bilstein shocks that keep all the factory functions as long as it still rides nice on the street.

This is our plan - the only addition is some front and rear aero because it has power to burn and we think we can pick up significant time braking and turning.

The prototype MPP OEM caliper 'BBK' brake setup is almost ready on the car - it will be a little while before we get to track test it because of the weather/travel. So far street testing has shown it to be quite promising. We'll start by testing with GLoc pads because they work ok and they are willing to make them quickly.

We want track mode out before testing as well so we can work on some of the other things at the same event.

 

[lbowroom]

Except that maybe, perhaps just 2% of TMC MS Plaid owners will be tracking their Plaids. The vast majority only cares about slowing/stopping more efficiently from higher speeds and/or in emergency situations on the street. If I wanted a "track car," I wouldn't have sold my modded '12 GT-R back in 2019.

Do you think I'm disagreeing with you?

 

[impastu]

cross-posting

Wiki - Model S Delivery Update

When they run out, you can resell for a nice profit. They ran out 2 times already lol!

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[RB_PB]

At least don't buy xt910, 970 is better for street on Tesla's.

But I wouldn't buy RB rotors - bolts are expensive and disposable after track use. Also, slots on rotors make heavy grunt noise at braking. Calipers are too soft and bend way too much under pressure. And then customer service horrible by design. Reviewers who praise complete loss of any fade should let us know if they paid a full price for upgrade...

I'm quite certain that rotors are too small even with improved venting, so we need forced air, water cooling and largest possible rotors with proper AP/Brembo/ST calipers.

I use UP CCB now on m3p - it's much less dust, much better feel vs stock, but looking at my temperature on the track - this exact samr 400mm combination is not good enough for Plaid. Large track would put 3-4x heat energy in brakes on Plaid vs m3p.

It's also important to know - CCB have much lower heat capacity at the same size and much worse ventilation, so they get stupid hot and overheat calipers by radiation and boil fluid. It's not only about price - unless you have high pressure forced air, carbon brake are just worse than gray cast iron by all performance measures.

How come you never purchased nor used XT910 pad yet can talk in such an authoritative mode (Don't buy...)? - Forgot or just want to act as how much you knows?

Just to help your memory, here is your revised invoice, under Note: Per customer's request XT970 was shipped (in lieu of standard XT910).

<redacted>

You sold the front kit (assumed still keep the rear kit) to an M3 owner in Hong Kong in Oct 2020, who called us for help to sort out the rotor issue on noise and installation. This was when we discovered the rotors were altered by your (with an insert ring, pic provided by the new owner).

The rotors were evidently not correctly re-assembled after alternation, but you used it to keep accusing RB two piece rotor hardware issue. Even after we explained in detail - If they are torqued properly there is no way they will become loose.

Upgrading Brake Pads for Plaid - Racing Brake

Hey folks, I can't believe that I ran out of brakes on the street....don't know why. I am certainly swapping out the fluid but I ordered some more aggressive pads from Racing Brake yesterday. The pad lining is 54mm vs. the OEM pad of 42 mm. Racing Brake also has a pad and rotor package as...

teslamotorsclub.com

Instead of reviewing it and thinking of "what could I have done wrong?" you return with more vicious attacks.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6034253/

We know this is an usual reaction from a beginner who started learning how to track; but lack of wisdom to learn. Who always blame the equipment and/or the vender but himself. In fact we have been shipping our hardware free to customers who need them that was not even caused by our fault, but you "NEVER" contacted us for the hardware issue - Neither replacement nor purchase, so why you know the hardware cost.

The new owner from Hong Kong also purchased our rear BBK and he has been happy since. In fact we helped you resolve your hardware issue with your buyer on those "undisclosed" defects so what's wrong with our customer service?

I just have these questions for you to respond.

1. What kind of track cars you owned before M3, and how many seasons or track days you have to enable you to talk like a vantage track racer?
2. Where is your rear RB BBK now, if you still have it are the hardware also making noise or falling apart., or if it's sold did you disclose to the new owner with the hardware issue?
3. If you still have RB rear kit, can you take a pic of those hardware and post it here to prove your point.

Other subjective opinions about what you like and dislike are your personal opinion BUT it's usually not coming out from someone that are truly experienced with intelligence and knowledge that are willing to help and contribute to the community, who would only advise how to make a proper choice in equipment and accessories by sharing the skills w/o even touching the brands. Your message is loud and clear - Don't buy RB but buy "X" brands, while insulting others posting positive review on RB in receiving discounts that should have well said about yourself why you recommended other brands.

You should learn how to co-exist with others with peace and respect than spreading the hate (repeatedly without a ground), you only have our kit for 3 month, while some customers have our kits for decades before they are willingly to endorse our products that's the difference.

 

[bhzmark]

Have you tried to slow your MS Plaid down (with the oem brake rotors & pads) from high speeds on the track and/or in Mexico of course ? It's not a good feeling.

Yes exactly -- this is the problem.

Yes. Initially, it stops okay but the pedal feels like mush. At that point the rotor has very little heat in them so that issue is expected to be pads. This would be what you referred to as emergency stopping.

No -- it doesn't stop ok at all. Try going faster and try stopping harder --a lot harder. At a track doing just 1/8 mile runs but having to brake very hard to make the turn off, the car bucks like a horse with the rear end hopping around when braking hard from 100+. Very unsettling. I had to give up braking hard and luckily had enough room to lose speed more slowly but had to lamely turn around to come back to the turn off delaying people behind me for the next run.

The OEM brakes do not work well coming down hard from very high speeds even in a straight line, and would likely be unsafe if any steering input were needed in addition to hard braking.

 

[sflgator]

Yes exactly -- this is the problem.

No -- it doesn't stop ok at all. Try going faster and try stopping harder --a lot harder. At a track doing just 1/8 mile runs but having to brake very hard to make the turn off, the car bucks like a horse with the rear end hopping around when braking hard from 100+. Very unsettling. I had to give up braking hard and luckily had enough room to lose speed more slowly but had to lamely turn around to come back to the turn off delaying people behind me for the next run.

The OEM brakes do not work well coming down hard from very high speeds even in a straight line, and would likely be unsafe if any steering input were needed in addition to hard braking.

Agreed and Tesla knows it. I do not think Tesla will have any problem with anyone swapping out their brake rotors & pads with aftermarket ones. What I can tell you is that so far, I am pleased with my decision to do just this with the RB rotors & pads...much better braking performance than with oem.

 

[Mash]

How come you never purchased nor used XT910 pad yet can talk in such an authoritative mode (Don't buy...)? - Forgot or just want to act as how much you knows?

Just to help your memory, here is your revised invoice, under Note: Per customer's request XT970 was shipped (in lieu of standard XT910).

View attachment 740428
You sold the front kit (assumed still keep the rear kit) to an M3 owner in Hong Kong in Oct 2020, who called us for help to sort out the rotor issue on noise and installation. This was when we discovered the rotors were altered by your (with an insert ring, pic provided by the new owner).

View attachment 740365
The rotors were evidently not correctly re-assembled after alternation, but you used it to keep accusing RB two piece rotor hardware issue. Even after we explained in detail - If they are torqued properly there is no way they will become loose.

Upgrading Brake Pads for Plaid - Racing Brake

Hey folks, I can't believe that I ran out of brakes on the street....don't know why. I am certainly swapping out the fluid but I ordered some more aggressive pads from Racing Brake yesterday. The pad lining is 54mm vs. the OEM pad of 42 mm. Racing Brake also has a pad and rotor package as...

teslamotorsclub.com

Instead of reviewing it and thinking of "what could I have done wrong?" you return with more vicious attacks.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6034253/

We know this is an usual reaction from a beginner who started learning how to track; but lack of wisdom to learn. Who always blame the equipment and/or the vender but himself. In fact we have been shipping our hardware free to customers who need them that was not even caused by our fault, but you "NEVER" contacted us for the hardware issue - Neither replacement nor purchase, so why you know the hardware cost.

The new owner from Hong Kong also purchased our rear BBK and he has been happy since. In fact we helped you resolve your hardware issue with your buyer on those "undisclosed" defects so what's wrong with our customer service?

I just have these questions for you to respond.

1. What kind of track cars you owned before M3, and how many seasons or track days you have to enable you to talk like a vantage track racer?
2. Where is your rear RB BBK now, if you still have it are the hardware also making noise or falling apart., or if it's sold did you disclose to the new owner with the hardware issue?
3. If you still have RB rear kit, can you take a pic of those hardware and post it here to prove your point.

Other subjective opinions about what you like and dislike are your personal opinion BUT it's usually not coming out from someone that are truly experienced with intelligence and knowledge that are willing to help and contribute to the community, who would only advise how to make a proper choice in equipment and accessories by sharing the skills w/o even touching the brands. Your message is loud and clear - Don't buy RB but buy "X" brands, while insulting others posting positive review on RB in receiving discounts that should have well said about yourself why you recommended other brands.

You should learn how to co-exist with others with peace and respect than spreading the hate (repeatedly without a ground), you only have our kit for 3 month, while some customers have our kits for decades before they are willingly to endorse our products that's the difference.

Usual RB customer service on board.

I never tried 910, but since 970 is perfectly streetable on Tesla, I suggested to use 970 at least, because it's higher temperature. I said nothing about 910 except that there is no point in it with 970 present.

i never been installing any hub rings or alternating rotors. This is a new buyer installed them to fit his wheels - my wheels are done to stock specs. But tell us more about how hub rings can destroy bolts on brake rotors - show us your expertise.

The idea that I can't torque to spec rotors falls on it's face, because rear rotors I didn't had to torque myself (since you only sent me wrong hats for the front axle), but yet, all 4 rotors started moving cold after a single track day. Just because you say "they cant" I can only think that you either lying intentionally or plain incompetent.

If that wouldn't be offtopic, I would post here your letters with proposal to go f myself for posting anything online and how you were ignoring my requests for help for 2 months. Or how you yelled at me on the phone that I'm not a human for asking when I can get my replacement rotors after you sent me wrong hats. Tell us how you required to remove my comments about issues from this forum to send me replacement hats...

My rear rotors are still on the car and I had to loctite them after every track day, because I have no time to order proper AP rotors. But I hate them every day for stupid unnecessary grunt they have due to the sharp edges on slots.

I don't advertise any brands - almost everything else works fine - MPP, UP, AP, Brembo, ST. But your products have multiple design flaws that you never admit for 15 years - low calipers stiffness, unreliable and noisy rotors and most of all horrendous customer service where you take customer as hostages and insult them continuously whenever they have complaints. Your 970 pads are ok, but I expect same BS CS would apply if anyone has problem with the order and so I'd rather wait for other vendors.

And you compensate that with continuous bs to people on a new platforms about how happy your customers and how track proven your products. Fooling them with your CAD drawings, because they don't know what they look at. And as a proof you send few of your ambassadors, who are happy to get large discounts, in every thread where people share their negative experience.

Everyone who tracks their Tesla on this forum and purchased your bbk either sold it or just replaced it, as far as I know. Multiple people mentioned your sketchy customer service just here. Multiple forums of other platforms where you attack customers and claim it's their problem that rotors are falling apart. Same exact talk with you consistently trying to prove that this customer is not professional and did something wrong.

How many more years you going to be repeating the same mistake and coming with attacks on customers online? I sincerely wish bankruptcy to your business, because amount of fooled customers is just too high and you continue the same horrible practice. Let your son manage the business already. Or sell it, I don't care.

Im going to continue opposing your marketing here with facts of personal experience. Get over that, being paid vendor doesn't give you power to silence your customers. I don't care that you invested to be the first cheapest brake solution to Plaid - people need to be aware of what they can expect, because they can't imagine that such business can exist with active online presence.

 

[lbowroom]

 

[Trompazo]

Yes exactly -- this is the problem.

No -- it doesn't stop ok at all. Try going faster and try stopping harder --a lot harder. At a track doing just 1/8 mile runs but having to brake very hard to make the turn off, the car bucks like a horse with the rear end hopping around when braking hard from 100+. Very unsettling. I had to give up braking hard and luckily had enough room to lose speed more slowly but had to lamely turn around to come back to the turn off delaying people behind me for the next run.

The OEM brakes do not work well coming down hard from very high speeds even in a straight line, and would likely be unsafe if any steering input were needed in addition to hard braking.

After one 1/8 mile run?

If your car is bucking like a horse with the rear end hopping, that is more than just brake fade.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

@MountainPass - got an ETA yet on the Plaid brake kit?

 

[bhzmark]

After one 1/8 mile run?

If your car is bucking like a horse with the rear end hopping, that is more than just brake fade.

yes this was on the first hard brake application -- not fade and not just the stock brake mush -- it was weird behavior from the brakes. I had never encountered it before. Makes me want to watch that Plaid Nurbergring video again to see if I see it there, although I suspect that they had to do that lap going easy on the brakes to keep them remotely usable for the entire lap so my application of brakes just short of triggering ABS from about 125 mph was harder and longer than any single brake usage in the Nurberging video.

Although thinking about it maybe what I was sensing was the ABS -- that is possible. It was so fast and short and unpleasant that I don't recall the details well enough.

 

[sflgator]

Usual RB customer service on board.

I never tried 910, but since 970 is perfectly streetable on Tesla, I suggested to use 970 at least, because it's higher temperature. I said nothing about 910 except that there is no point in it with 970 present.

i never been installing any hub rings or alternating rotors. This is a new buyer installed them to fit his wheels - my wheels are done to stock specs. But tell us more about how hub rings can destroy bolts on brake rotors - show us your expertise.

The idea that I can't torque to spec rotors falls on it's face, because rear rotors I didn't had to torque myself (since you only sent me wrong hats for the front axle), but yet, all 4 rotors started moving cold after a single track day. Just because you say "they cant" I can only think that you either lying intentionally or plain incompetent.

If that wouldn't be offtopic, I would post here your letters with proposal to go f myself for posting anything online and how you were ignoring my requests for help for 2 months. Or how you yelled at me on the phone that I'm not a human for asking when I can get my replacement rotors after you sent me wrong hats. Tell us how you required to remove my comments about issues from this forum to send me replacement hats...

My rear rotors are still on the car and I had to loctite them after every track day, because I have no time to order proper AP rotors. But I hate them every day for stupid unnecessary grunt they have due to the sharp edges on slots.

I don't advertise any brands - almost everything else works fine - MPP, UP, AP, Brembo, ST. But your products have multiple design flaws that you never admit for 15 years - low calipers stiffness, unreliable and noisy rotors and most of all horrendous customer service where you take customer as hostages and insult them continuously whenever they have complaints. Your 970 pads are ok, but I expect same BS CS would apply if anyone has problem with the order and so I'd rather wait for other vendors.

And you compensate that with continuous bs to people on a new platforms about how happy your customers and how track proven your products. Fooling them with your CAD drawings, because they don't know what they look at. And as a proof you send few of your ambassadors, who are happy to get large discounts, in every thread where people share their negative experience.

Everyone who tracks their Tesla on this forum and purchased your bbk either sold it or just replaced it, as far as I know. Multiple people mentioned your sketchy customer service just here. Multiple forums of other platforms where you attack customers and claim it's their problem that rotors are falling apart. Same exact talk with you consistently trying to prove that this customer is not professional and did something wrong.

How many more years you going to be repeating the same mistake and coming with attacks on customers online? I sincerely wish bankruptcy to your business, because amount of fooled customers is just too high and you continue the same horrible practice. Let your son manage the business already. Or sell it, I don't care.

Im going to continue opposing your marketing here with facts of personal experience. Get over that, being paid vendor doesn't give you power to silence your customers. I don't care that you invested to be the first cheapest brake solution to Plaid - people need to be aware of what they can expect, because they can't imagine that such business can exist with active online presence.

I have no idea about the history & arguments between yourself and RB (@RB_PB), but what I can say is that IF you track your car (any car, ICE or even an EV like a Tesla), you have to "Pay to Play." You will end up spending 10x as much $$ as the average driver who just uses their vehicle for everyday driving purposes just on repairs, upgrades, etc. It appears to me (and likely any other 3rd party observer) that you are a "track guy" and track your car (Tesla?), so therefore you WILL have more replacement parts/costs and more problems with your car...period. I've had many cars that I've just done 1/4 mi runs with but all my GT-R, BMW, Porsche, & MB AMG buddies who track their cars (twisty track, not 1/4 mi) have ALL told me they go through brake systems parts, tires, suspension system parts, and ICE engine parts like crazy and it's all crazy expensive! Um, no thank you on the tracking thing with my DD.

Apparently, your history and experience with RB isn't a good one, but for the purposes of THIS forum thread and the Tesla MS Plaid, I'm not sure if what you're saying has much credence and relevance. Personally, I received no special discounts from RB, I wasn't asked (and there were no demands from RB) to post anything nice about my experience with RB and their products. Their customer service has been quite decent, honest and responsive from my experience, so perhaps it just depends on the situation and circumstances per each customer and what transpires?

I am a first-time RB buyer and customer, and since it appears they're first-to-market with Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrades (and their prices seem quite fair), I decided to buy their basic Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrade with same-size-as-oem light weight, drilled/slotted rotors & XT910 brake pads to see IF they improve the braking performance of my MS Plaid, especially from higher speeds. So far, I am seeing/feeling this brake performance improvement over Tesla oem and I do not hear any noises from the rotors or pads -- no squeaks, rattles, or any other problems you mentioned regarding another set of RB products on one of your different vehicles (Tesla M3 I believe). Perhaps your previous issues with RB products were installation related (faulty installation?)? Nobody will ever know, so it doesn't matter right now...different car, different products.

I also had a nice DM conversation with MP and it seems they definitely know what they're talking about and they were very responsive to answer my questions and assist me with something as well, and I am super grateful to them as well! I am willing to bet that whatever brake upgrade MP (@MountainPass ) comes out with for the MS Plaid will also be excellent!

So, in the end...after reading what RB has said and after reading what you've said prior and in response, I think most of us want to stay out of your fight between you & RB, but not much of any of what both of you are saying helps anyone here on TMC. I am no "ambassador" to any company here on TMC or elsewhere; I just call it like I see (and experience) it. Btw -- you shouldn't ever wish "bankruptcy" on any small, family run company as KARMA will only come back at you. Perhaps you should just say "I had a bad experience with this company and I won't buy their products again, but others might have a very different experience with this company." Just my thoughts.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

@sflgator - it’s my daily driver too but I find myself doing stupid things with its power sometimes during my “daily driving”. And the brakes just don’t inspire confidence.

When you say improvement, can you elaborate any further? I’m trying to think through the following options
1. RB’s 380/365 kit
2. RB’s 390/390 kit
3. Whatever MPP comes up with - their Girodisc options have always been quite good and reasonable

Unless I get a solid timeframe from MPP for what they have to offer other than the “watch this space” response they have at the moment, I’m probably between option 1 and 2.

Just need some thinking thru 1 and 2. Don’t care about tracking but I do want SpaceBall1 to not overshoot by a parsec!

 

[sflgator]

@sflgator - it’s my daily driver too but I find myself doing stupid things with its power sometimes during my “daily driving”. And the brakes just don’t inspire confidence.

When you say improvement, can you elaborate any further? I’m trying to think through the following options
1. RB’s 380/365 kit
2. RB’s 390/390 kit
3. Whatever MPP comes up with - their Girodisc options have always been quite good and reasonable

Unless I get a solid timeframe from MPP for what they have to offer other than the “watch this space” response they have at the moment, I’m probably between option 1 and 2.

Just need some thinking thru 1 and 2. Don’t care about tracking but I do want SpaceBall1 to not overshoot by a parsec!

RB's same-as-oem-size rotors 380mm/365mm with XT910 brake pads. Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K)

Basically, they help my MS Plaid slow & stop better. Period. Not so squishy with less brake overheating & less brake fade. No squeaks, squealing, rattles or any strange noises thus far. However, I'm not inclined to stand on my brakes several x per week testing it, so "testing" is an ongoing process. I haven't done much spirited driving in the past couple weeks (other than just a few times but my MS Plaid slowed down with much more confidence than it did with the oem Tesla brake rotors & pads), so if I notice anything different over time, I will update everyone in this thread. I hope that helps.