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Mary Barra, what is going through your mind right now?

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Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with the 'at least trying' comment. A company with the experience and deep pockets that GM appears to have should have been able to build something that might have been able to compete with Tesla. They didn't come close. Other than range, it's about as pretty as a Leaf or i3 and should really compete in the fugly market. Apologies to owners of both... ;-)

If they were trying, they would have started at the tires and designed a new platform from there... instead of attempting to impose an ICE design. New drivetrain options - they had a clean slate, like Tesla. They chose not to take advantage of that freedom and instead simply shoe-horned an electric drivetrain into an ICE.

I think they wanted to look like they're trying, so when the tide really turns, they can claim experience and vision. And in the meantime, it serves as another compliance car. 50,000 units annually from a company that big isn't really production... and with no battery production ramp up, they clearly show no motivation to accelerate production. No interest in a charging network... completes the fail.

Actually, IMO the Volt is superior to the Tesla. The Volt can be 100% EV or it can go anywhere in the world a normal sedan can. Tesla cannot.

There is not a EV grid in North America. With 2 proprietary and one SAE standard, there probably never will be. It opens the gate to each MFR to do a proprietary charge format.

Assuming it stays at 3 formats for charging, it will be 50 years at the current level of expansion to match the ICE infrastructure. And guess what? EV's need more density for the same volume of cars. Many EVs are less than 100 miles, and charge rates will never match liquid fuel miles per minute rates.

So for the indefinite future, the EV grid will be busted. The MFRs chose it to be broken, so it is. At least GM went SAE which was a spec Tesla participated in.

There are 4 million miles of roads in the US alone. And 125,000 fueling locations. Or 1 per 32 miles. DCFC? About 1 per 4000 miles?
 
Actually, IMO the Volt is superior to the Tesla. The Volt can be 100% EV or it can go anywhere in the world a normal sedan can. Tesla cannot.

There is not a EV grid in North America. With 2 proprietary and one SAE standard, there probably never will be. It opens the gate to each MFR to do a proprietary charge format.

Assuming it stays at 3 formats for charging, it will be 50 years at the current level of expansion to match the ICE infrastructure. And guess what? EV's need more density for the same volume of cars. Many EVs are less than 100 miles, and charge rates will never match liquid fuel miles per minute rates.

So for the indefinite future, the EV grid will be busted. The MFRs chose it to be broken, so it is. At least GM went SAE which was a spec Tesla participated in.

There are 4 million miles of roads in the US alone. And 125,000 fueling locations. Or 1 per 32 miles. DCFC? About 1 per 4000 miles?

That doesn't make the Volt objectively superior, though. It's superior based on what is required, and the same for the Model S.
 
I see the thread is going in all directions, but once again, I would remind people why people don't respect GM's efforts.
1) They play up being a Tesla beater (being "first") and Tesla being for elites (which is laughable given almost 300k preorders for the Model 3, there must be 10-100x more "elites" than average people)
2) Play up the dealer network and lobbying to put road blocks to Tesla opening stores and service centers (the only automaker doing so),
3) Say they are "not an infrastructure company" and doing practically nothing to add infrastructure for their cars (something even I didn't expect given they are a leader in SAE and how sorely CCS is behind in the USA vs CHAdeMO and superchargers).

You can contrast this to Ghosn's approach and see so much more sincerity in working to get EVs into the mainstream rather than having the main goal of knocking down or slowing down Tesla.
http://jalopnik.com/why-nissan-is-stoked-over-all-the-tesla-model-3-pre-ord-1769098597

Nissan's car may not end up any more significant than the Bolt in features, but I predict the company will get far more respect than GM does. Basically, I can see Elon and Ghosn sitting at a table and having nice discussions about the EV market and how to promote it, but I don't see the same for Elon and Mary given what GM is doing.
 
That doesn't make the Volt objectively superior, though. It's superior based on what is required, and the same for the Model S.

When the argument is Only Tesla Is Serious, and All Other Companies Want To Abolish EVs, I know I should not reply.

You can't argue using facts in a religious discussion.

GM was SO serious about EVs in 2009, that they did they their homework. To provide a car that operated in pure EV mode, yet had no geographic limitations, it would have to have a generator on board. However, they needed to keep the price down, since most car buyers are in the $30k's. It was logical, pragmatic solution, that didn't rely on religion or exaggeration to work for the masses.

In this aspect GM was more serious than Tesla. Tesla claims there is no geographic limitations for their brand of EV (and only their brand), but it's simply not true. However, religion makes it true. It has "Nationwide" coverage.
 
Actually, IMO the Volt is superior to the Tesla. The Volt can be 100% EV or it can go anywhere in the world a normal sedan can. Tesla cannot.

There is not a EV grid in North America. With 2 proprietary and one SAE standard, there probably never will be. It opens the gate to each MFR to do a proprietary charge format.

Assuming it stays at 3 formats for charging, it will be 50 years at the current level of expansion to match the ICE infrastructure. And guess what? EV's need more density for the same volume of cars. Many EVs are less than 100 miles, and charge rates will never match liquid fuel miles per minute rates.

So for the indefinite future, the EV grid will be busted. The MFRs chose it to be broken, so it is. At least GM went SAE which was a spec Tesla participated in.

There are 4 million miles of roads in the US alone. And 125,000 fueling locations. Or 1 per 32 miles. DCFC? About 1 per 4000 miles?
So, if the electrical system is so bad, why is GM investing in the Bolt? And why even make the Volt? Why not just keep making ICE since it is, in your mind, clearly the more superior.
 
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Actually, IMO the Volt is superior to the Tesla. The Volt can be 100% EV or it can go anywhere in the world a normal sedan can. Tesla cannot.
IMO the only way to dogsled is with a team of dogs harnessed to a Ski-Doo. That way, when the dogs get tired, you can keep going. I believe it's such a good idea, I'm thinking I should enter the Iditarod with a dozen Huskies tied to an MXZ next year.

The Volt has a gas tank. I would be hard-pressed to call it anything more than a plug-in hybrid. Without the engine, it can't get as far as an i3, Leaf or Smart ED. You can't say it's superior to a Tesla (any Tesla, real or imagined) because it's not a real BEV and does very little to solve our oil addiction and carbon problem.
 
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So, if the electrical system is so bad, why is GM investing in the Bolt? And why even make the Volt? Why not just keep making ICE since it is, in your mind, clearly the more superior.

The question is why did GM make the Volt so good? It had no competition, they could have released a car with less engineering hours.

And the same question with the Bolt. Why so good? Why not 130 miles, 180hp, subcompact? That was all that was required.

I love EV drivetrains. But I do not buy into the whole "EVs are Flawless! You do not question GOD!!" concept.

Saying Company X's EV efforts suck because they don't make Teslas is lame. Which is most of this thread.
 
When the argument is Only Tesla Is Serious, and All Other Companies Want To Abolish EVs, I know I should not reply.

You can't argue using facts in a religious discussion.

GM was SO serious about EVs in 2009, that they did they their homework. To provide a car that operated in pure EV mode, yet had no geographic limitations, it would have to have a generator on board. However, they needed to keep the price down, since most car buyers are in the $30k's. It was logical, pragmatic solution, that didn't rely on religion or exaggeration to work for the masses.

In this aspect GM was more serious than Tesla. Tesla claims there is no geographic limitations for their brand of EV (and only their brand), but it's simply not true. However, religion makes it true. It has "Nationwide" coverage.
It's not religion. GM's idea might have worked if they actually kept their Volt concept's promise of a car under $30k instead of $41k. So their idea of having an engine, didn't keep the price down. The Leaf that came out at the same time ended up less expensive at $33k. GM also had to sacrifice the rear seat space (something not fully solved with gen 2).

In terms of bring plug-ins to the masses, the Volt sales in the US is almost neck to neck with the Leaf (an EV people say is range compromised). Worldwide the Leaf surpasses it in sales. Judging from preorders, the Model 3 will be bringing things to a whole other level.

Also, while the Volt is a nice plug-in, it is not an BEV (personally I would use "EV" here, but I don't want this to devolve into another "dogma" thread). They have done practically nothing to help make it possible for an BEV to travel across the country (while Tesla did). And the slow onboard charger (they don't even have a 6.6kW option, not even for Gen 2) means it does little for Level 2 infrastructure also.

If you aren't investing on infrastructure, you really aren't serious about BEVs, since you will not be helping it become a mainstream replacement for ICE vehicles. Heck even BMW and VW is investing in a CCS charger network, while GM has come out and said they won't be doing any.

Promoting the idea that having an ICE is the only practical solution to long distance driving does nothing to help the BEV market expand (it might even make it shrink). There is also the confusion GM brought in insisting the car is an "EV" and making people think it only has 40 miles of range because of that (thus solidifying the impression of impracticality of EVs), but that is a subject for a different discussion.
 
IMO the only way to dogsled is with a team of dogs harnessed to a Ski-Doo. That way, when the dogs get tired, you can keep going. I believe it's such a good idea, I'm thinking I should enter the Iditarod with a dozen Huskies tied to an MXZ next year.

The Volt has a gas tank. I would be hard-pressed to call it anything more than a plug-in hybrid. Without the engine, it can't get as far as an i3, Leaf or Smart ED. You can't say it's superior to a Tesla (any Tesla, real or imagined) because it's not a real BEV and does very little to solve our oil addiction and carbon problem.

You can call the Volt a flying spaghetti monster if you like. It's the Anti-Christ.

Most Tesla owners also own a Gas car. Why?

With a Volt, you don't have to.

89% electric miles on our 2013, and 90% electric miles on our 2016, have left our ICE vehcles parked for commuting. Both together were $50k new after all taxes, fees, and rebates. Both have been trouble free. One $15 oil change (2 years cutoff, only 900 miles of operation).

It's not religious, it just works. So call it whatever you like, our 2 Volts seldom use gasoline, but somehow they move down the road just fine.
 
You can call the Volt a flying spaghetti monster if you like. It's the Anti-Christ.

Most Tesla owners also own a Gas car. Why?

With a Volt, you don't have to.

89% electric miles on our 2013, and 90% electric miles on our 2016, have left our ICE vehcles parked for commuting. Both together were $50k new after all taxes, fees, and rebates. Both have been trouble free. One $15 oil change (2 years cutoff, only 900 miles of operation).

It's not religious, it just works. So call it whatever you like, our 2 Volts seldom use gasoline, but somehow they move down the road just fine.

So why are you on a Tesla owners forum promoting the Volt and the Corvette? We get it ... the Volt's a good car for some; for others 40 mi electric range isn't cutting it.
 
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McRat, as a fellow Volt owner I just have to ask, do you REALLY have a Tesla Model 3 reservation? And if so, why?

Remember, you are on a Tesla board last I looked.

Can't speak for Mr. McRat, but for me it was easy - and speaking to many others, they seem to have a similar view. For a 100% refundable reservation, it is a cheap bet that the car will be worth buying before the tax credits run out. I am not sure how my kids will actually charge their cars since they won't have a house at that time, but there is still 2 years to figure that one out.
 
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When the argument is Only Tesla Is Serious, and All Other Companies Want To Abolish EVs, I know I should not reply.

You can't argue using facts in a religious discussion.

GM was SO serious about EVs in 2009, that they did they their homework. To provide a car that operated in pure EV mode, yet had no geographic limitations, it would have to have a generator on board. However, they needed to keep the price down, since most car buyers are in the $30k's. It was logical, pragmatic solution, that didn't rely on religion or exaggeration to work for the masses.

In this aspect GM was more serious than Tesla. Tesla claims there is no geographic limitations for their brand of EV (and only their brand), but it's simply not true. However, religion makes it true. It has "Nationwide" coverage.

When did the crazy train arrive at the station?

I have no issues with the Volt...I'm simply pointing out that the Volt isn't a superior car except under very specific circumstances. And even those circumstances are still subjective.

Not sure why pointing this out should elicit such an odd response.
 
It really depends on your idea of bland. CTS-V, ATS-V, Camaro, etc, you can spot a GM at a distance.

The Corvette is not an exception. It doesn't even have competitors. Chevy builds them for Chevy folk. Euro guys need not apply. It's not priced high enough, the badges aren't large enough, it lacks a "real" grill, it's too fast, handles too well, sounds too good, and gets too good of fuel economy, Sadly, they are sold with automatics available in most models, which blows. Yes, it's perhaps the world's finest automatic today, but still.

My ZR1 is "bland" smooth styling. It doesn't "claim" to exceed 200mph, it actually does. It's doesn't claim to run 10.9, it actually runs quicker. It has real brakes (big ass carbon ceramic Brembos), powerful electronic warfare tricks for wussies, and handles like a 2000lb car.

Oh, and the Nissan GT-R "Godzilla" is indeed a "Tesla Killer", regardless if you like the look or not.

PS - Elon said the other night the Model S is the "fastest four door". Exactly what were it's Nurburgring times, and top speed? I know my CTS-V 4-door had a stupid 175mph speed limiter. Others ran the ring at 7:xx in the 2009 CTS-V. Not sure any Tesla can match that or the $60k price tag.

Uh oh... looks like I've opened up a religious war. :)

I'm not a "Euro guy". 70% of the vehicles I've owned have been North American - admittedly mostly Jeeps & trucks, but also some sedans. And I have fairly strong preference to buy North American, all other things being equal. Repeatedly, when time for a new vehicle for my wife or I, I've gone onto the GM lot hoping to find something appealing and have come away disappointed. The Volt was a case in point. The original Volt prototype was a really nice looking vehicle and I was hoping to buy one. The production unit came out and it looked like a rento-car. Why?! For my wife's last car, I was really wanted to like one of the newer Buicks. And then I drove them. Compared to the competition, they felt poorly made, were sloppy to drive and just all around made me feel like I was in a rento-car.

They have a few halo cars - again, I like the Vette - but the vast majority of their lineup is always... meh. They all look & drive like they were designed by committee.
 
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If they were trying, they would have started at the tires and designed a new platform from there... instead of attempting to impose an ICE design. New drivetrain options - they had a clean slate, like Tesla. They chose not to take advantage of that freedom and instead simply shoe-horned an electric drivetrain into an ICE.
In what way is the Bolt EV "an ICE design"? Seriously. Because it is FWD? That's all I can think of. But, of course, the Model 3 is not a non-ICE design just because it is RWD. There are plenty of RWD ICE cars.

Tesla uses RWD, in large part, because they option up performance versions of the car and those levels of power work better with RWD just like an ICE Corvette etc. from a Chevy dealer.

In fact, the Bolt EV is designed from the tires up as a BEV with a large under-the-floor structurally integrated battery pack just as much as Tesla did with the S, C, or 3. The Bolt's platform unibody structure is an entirely new design.


There is not a EV grid in North America. With 2 proprietary and one SAE standard, there probably never will be. It opens the gate to each MFR to do a proprietary charge format.

Assuming it stays at 3 formats for charging, it will be 50 years at the current level of expansion to match the ICE infrastructure. And guess what? EV's need more density for the same volume of cars. Many EVs are less than 100 miles, and charge rates will never match liquid fuel miles per minute rates.
I think you are overstating things a bit here... At least one of CHAdeMO or SAE CCS is going to fade away over the next 10 years like Betamax vs VHS. I'm placing my bet that CCS will win as it has a simpler to use plug design and soon more BEV makers behind it. Kia/Hyundai are apparently switching to CCS in their new models. All Euro makers will be CCS. GM, Ford, and FCA/Chrysler are all CCS although only GM has cars on the road now.

CHAdeMO is basically Nissan. Neither Honda or Toyota have made US-delivery DC charging cars and haven't clearly committed to any CHAdeMO cars in the immediate future that I'm aware of. Let's get some perspective -- we are still very early days in terms of DC charging station rollout and what matters is future installations rather than what we have now.

3) [GM] Say they are "not an infrastructure company" and doing practically nothing to add infrastructure for their cars (something even I didn't expect given they are a leader in SAE and how sorely CCS is behind in the USA vs CHAdeMO and superchargers).
Yep, I think that's a mistake and 300,000 Model 3 reservations may change their mind. Also, I don't take statements like that too seriously. GM said as recently as a couple of years ago that they weren't going to do non-plug hybrids and then turned around and announced the 46 mpg mid-size Malibu hybrid. They were obviously working on the Malibu while saying they weren't doing regular hybrids. The same may apply to interstate charging. The various CCS supporting makers ultimately need to compete with Tesla, especially the Euro premium car makers near term. It's in the common short-term business interest of the Euro companies and GM to cooperate with some 3rd party (ChargePoint...) to build out an initial interstate charging system starting in areas within a few hundred miles of their BEV customers who are clustered along the coasts. Because the economics and business strategy favor it, I'm guessing it will be done.

It's not religion. GM's idea might have worked if they actually kept their Volt concept's promise of a car under $30k instead of $41k. So their idea of having an engine, didn't keep the price down. The Leaf that came out at the same time ended up less expensive at $33k. GM also had to sacrifice the rear seat space (something not fully solved with gen 2).
The Volt's concept was usable in-town electric driving with road trip ability. That's beyond what the LEAF could offer and they also put more effort and $$ into doing the battery pack right.

Much like the Model S, but at a smaller scale, GM was riding the battery pricing curve. Both the Model S and the initial model year Volt were pricy because of this. GM incrementally dropped the price across model year (while tweaking battery storage size).

Today's Volt is about $10,000 less in today's dollars (inflation adjusted) than the 2011 Volt. With the fed credit and a CA rebate (where 40+% of Volts are sold) you can buy a Volt for $25,000 including destination charge and that's before dealer discounts which are good for another $1-2k. In other words, about the same price as a similarly equipped Prius liftback. The fed credit will soon be gone but battery price drops on the 18.4 kWh pack will help compensate.
 
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The Volt was a case in point. The original Volt prototype was a really nice looking vehicle and I was hoping to buy one. The production unit came out and it looked like a rento-car. Why?
Aerodynamics and the ability to design a new Volt body on top of an existing suspension "platform" with modest changes for the T-shape battery pack.

Have you tried driving the redesigned 2016 Volt? It's quite nice compared to the car industry norms. It handles quite well and launches 0-30 about 0.1 seconds slower than an S60. According to Car & Driver, it is quieter accelerating and at steady highway speeds than a Model S70. It's an excellent "EV on training wheels" transitional car to lead people from ICE to BEV.
 
In what way is the Bolt EV "an ICE design"? Seriously. Because it is FWD? That's all I can think of. But, of course, the Model 3 is not a non-ICE design just because it is RWD. There are plenty of RWD ICE cars.
According to the images I've seen, you lift the hood and all the drivetrains stuff is jammed in there. Yes, batteries are underneath because they need so many, otherwise I'd have expected them to replace the rear fuel tank with a block of them like the Spark. I'm almost surprised they didn't put them on roof racks in a Thule box.

Permanent magnet motor... the electric equivalent to a cast iron engine block. Scalable?

Front wheel drive, because they can drop the whole assembly in just like a 4 cylinder/transaxle unit. How will that crash-test? Probably with similar challenges to an ICE... i.e., 'not well', when stacked up against the M3.

Tesla messed around with the passenger compartment, pushing it forward because there was space. Bolt looks cramped, with the compartment sitting exactly where it would be in a Spark or other small ICE. Why? Linear ICE mentality.

They had a chance to do something interesting and exciting and... well... they designed the Bolt. Looks like every other econobox on the dealership lot.
 
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The Volt's concept was usable in-town electric driving with road trip ability. That's beyond what the LEAF could offer and they also put more effort and $$ into doing the battery pack right.
Yes, I know all of that (about the short range of the Leaf and battery issues), but the Volt simply didn't meet the promise of bringing plug-in driving to the masses beyond the volume that a BEV could do. The idea behind it was that it brings a large group of people into a plug-in as a stepping stone to a full EVs. However, because of the price premium over a BEV, the impact ended up roughly the same (in the US; worldwide, the Leaf made a larger impact). This is despite a long range advantage that theoretically should have pushed sales much higher.

The current Volt definitely is a lot closer to the original promise, esp. with incentives. The weird 2016 model year kind of limited the sales, but we'll see how the 2017 does.
 
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Aerodynamics and the ability to design a new Volt body on top of an existing suspension "platform" with modest changes for the T-shape battery pack.

Have you tried driving the redesigned 2016 Volt? It's quite nice compared to the car industry norms. It handles quite well and launches 0-30 about 0.1 seconds slower than an S60. According to Car & Driver, it is quieter accelerating and at steady highway speeds than a Model S70. It's an excellent "EV on training wheels" transitional car to lead people from ICE to BEV.

The new one is admittedly much better, but it's not near as attractive a vehicle as the original prototype. Yes, I get that there are reasons. But that's the whole point about GM. All of their vehicles are compromises, and so what they produce looks and drives like a compromise. I can imagine the meetings, as the frustrated vehicle designers attempted to retain some of the style that the prototype Volt exuded. One by one the design engineers, manufacturing engineers, supply chain folks and accountants paraded through with a series of eminently practical reasons why the Volt had change from a "CAR!" to a "car".

It's part of what differentiates Apple from... HP, Samsung or various others. There are very good and practical reasons why for many many years, HP produced crappy looking boxes that sold cheaply. Apple produced similarly performing computers that exuded beautiful industrial design, that appealed to people aesthetically and they were able command fantastic margins because of it. HP and Samsung are forever playing catch up (and mostly failing) and getting crappy margins.
 
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