Lucid (Atieva) reveal is December 14th. I'll be there, let you know afterwards.

[green1]

In other news I can ride a bike with no hands but it doesn't mean I should 100% of the time.

If the bike manufacturer advertised it as a feature, but the bike couldn't do it safely, you'd have a right to complain.

As you obviously believe that Tesla and Elon can do no wrong, why don't you go back to a thread about worshipping Elon and Tesla then, and leave this one for those of us looking at alternative companies?

I don't know if Lucid will be better, but it would be extremely difficult for them to be any worse. I'm looking forward to having alternatives.

 

[JeffK]

If the bike manufacturer advertised it as a feature, but the bike couldn't do it safely, you'd have a right to complain.

As you obviously believe that Tesla and Elon can do no wrong, why don't you go back to a thread about worshipping Elon and Tesla then, and leave this one for those of us looking at alternative companies?

I don't know if Lucid will be better, but it would be extremely difficult for them to be any worse. I'm looking forward to having alternatives.

I agree, my hope is that alternatives will encourage innovation and EVs will become the norm.

I think I'd worship Elon even if I drove a Lucid motors vehicle. He's done more in his life than many people and encouraged and inspired an entire generation of students, engineers, etc. I mean we practically have a space race to Mars, the opportunity for sustainable energy and sustainable transport in our lifetimes. Sure these things might have happened without him eventually but he's the one who really got the ball rolling and dedicated himself to his dreams. I wish I could work as hard as Elon but honestly, I'd probably go insane due to the pressure.

 

[gene]

@green1, it seems you are using this thread to express your feelings about Telsa. Yes, you integrate a few words about Lucid. My take from reading your posts elsewhere is that you are easily disappointed and then feel you must rant on and on. Lucid will not be perfect either, no automaker will please any customer 100%, I don't know if you will ever be happy. Please do your rants on your rant thread.

Please feel welcome to discuss Lucid here. Your input is actually quite good on many points but your rant against Tesla overpowers your constructive points.

 

[green1]

I was trying to discuss Lucid, but I answer when people question me, and correct them when they post untruth. This off-topic bit all started because someone asked why anyone would chose Lucid when Tesla already exists. I gave them several reasons, and people decided to run with the one about Tesla's lies (while not responding to any of the other points, or discussing Lucid at all).

I fully agree this thread should be about Lucid. As such, I will refrain from answering any more Tesla related questions or comments in this thread. To the inevitable post that will follow this about how great Tesla is (as someone will have to get "the last word") my lack of reply does not signal my agreement.

On that note:

Lucid has a long way to go to get from where they are now, to a product that we can buy and drive. Nothing in their plan, or in any statement I have heard from them so far, is at all unreasonable, or anything that others haven't done before. I wish them luck in their venture, and with any luck I will be driving one in a few years.

So far they've discussed charging infrastructure very little. I look forward to more detail on this one in the future. Keep in mind though that even "the company that shall not be named in this thread" didn't have any charging infrastructure at launch, and in fact didn't even talk about it until well after the first deliveries.

I also look forward to seeing what the cargo space will actually be in this vehicle, the executive seat version is wholly inadequate for my needs, however I do hope that the bench seat version is much better (especially if those seats fold down, which as of yet there's no reason to believe they couldn't (other than designer oversight))

It will also be very interesting to see what the final version looks like. After some more thought, I'm realizing that it's not just the headlights that won't make it to market, the whole lighting package doesn't look like it would meet regulatory approval, tail lights, signals, everything. So there will be changes to all of that, the only question is how much it ends up differing from the reveal (a slightly wider light strip on the back or for the signals would not ruin the aesthetics)

The rear executive seats are neat, but until full autonomy, will be un-loved in north america, those who hire a chauffeur here will want a higher end car than even this. and nobody who plans to sit in the front all the time will order an option like that. In China though that may sell well.

 

[ohmman]

So far they've discussed charging infrastructure very little. I look forward to more detail on this one in the future. Keep in mind though that even "the company that shall not be named in this thread" didn't have any charging infrastructure at launch, and in fact didn't even talk about it until well after the first deliveries.

This is a big question for me as well. When Tesla got started, there wasn't a competitor who had a fast charging network, so I think the environment is different, and potentially more difficult for Lucid today. I'm guessing they're giving serious thought to this, so I'm eager to hear an announcement about it.

I would like to see a more utilitarian version of the car as well. It goes the way of Model X more than Model S as far as utility vs passenger comfort. I believe that a utilitarian car is a more widely appealing vehicle, especially as an initial entrant into the market.

 

[gene]

I would like to see a more utilitarian version of the car as well. It goes the way of Model X more than Model S as far as utility vs passenger comfort. I believe that a utilitarian car is a more widely appealing vehicle, especially as an initial entrant into the market.

Me too, I'd love as basic a car as possible at a lower price. More trunk, less rear seat.

 

[green1]

This is a big question for me as well. When Tesla got started, there wasn't a competitor who had a fast charging network, so I think the environment is different, and potentially more difficult for Lucid today. I'm guessing they're giving serious thought to this, so I'm eager to hear an announcement about it.

I believe that they must at least talk about the issue before launch, I don't however believe that they won't be able to be successful if it takes time to roll out a charging network. A network that is being rolled out will likely be "good enough" to get cars sold, especially in places like California where they'll likely put their first chargers

I would like to see a more utilitarian version of the car as well. It goes the way of Model X more than Model S as far as utility vs passenger comfort. I believe that a utilitarian car is a more widely appealing vehicle, especially as an initial entrant into the market.

I have a feeling that this is a point they miss right now. Lots of emphasis on the top end of the market (the target customer that doesn't need a trunk because they get everything delivered and don't roadtrip with kids) rather than the lower end of the market where people stretch to buy a vehicle like this as their only car that must do everything. This honestly will be the biggest question on this car. I can almost guarantee that Lucid is thinking about the charger situation, I can't guarantee that this bit has even crossed their mind. (biggest question on the technical side, not the business side, they still have a lot of work to do there too, but I believe they are cognizant of the task ahead of them)

 

[AudubonB]

Of those who went to the Reveal - I don't think it's unreasonable of me to assume the invite was at least partly because you knew "Someone"...can you share whether there is amity or friction between Lucid and Tesla and, thus, some or zero possibility that Lucids might possibly be set up to use Tesla SpCs?

 

[gene]

Of those who went to the Reveal - I don't think it's unreasonable of me to assume the invite was at least partly because you knew "Someone"...can you share whether there is amity or friction between Lucid and Tesla and, thus, some or zero possibility that Lucids might possibly be set up to use Tesla SpCs?

I have not heard any amity nor friction from my connection at Lucid nor any conversations I witnessed at the reveal. I also was not informed of charging plans other than "all options are being discussed, there is time to decide". Personally, I'd like to see Lucid join the Tesla Superchargers. I think it would be a good thing for Tesla as well as Lucid.

 

[SageBrush]

At least we know where the inspiration for those back seats comes from.
Perhaps Lucid could add a built-in Foley catheter for those XXXL soda adventures ?

 

[Jeff N]

The CHAdeMO uses CAN (like the tesla supercharger) CCS uses a special card that communicates via PWM and this is part of the BMS. You cannot build the card into the adapter because it must handshake with the vehicle. On paper anything is possible but in reality this hardware has to be part of the vehicle not the adapter due to communication protocol CCS uses.

I fail to see why an adapter could not pretend to be the vehicle. Reasons?

In any case, I can see the advantages of having future Tesla vehicles include the PLC hardware and protocol stack necessary for implementing full CCS support with just a simple passthrough J1772 CCS adapter like today's AC-only J1772 adapter.

ALso there are not enough pins on the vehicle side for it to work with CCS. CHAdeMO communicates over CAN and does not require as many special purpose pins. I guess you could replace with european variant and that would probalby make it work but the Model S chargeport lacks the number of pins needed and must be swapped in order to work with CCS.

The North American Tesla plug and the J1772 plugs contain the same number of pins and have the same pin assignments. That's why Tesla's J1772 AC adapter is just a pass-through physical plug adapter. The CCS DC aspect just adds a couple of larger pins for carrying the larger DC current.

Actually, the CHAdeMO plug has more pins including a dedicated pair of CAN pins not present on the Tesla plug. So, Tesla does the same thing as J1772/CCS and re-uses the control
pilot pin and ground pin to modulate the digital data communications. So, the number of pins used are the same (they use the same actual pins).

You need a separate PLC for the DC pins. This needs to be integrated with the BMS per the spec. This currently only exists for AC charging in the vehicle. CHAdeMO is compatible with Superchargers/Tesla DC charging because they use the same messaging protocol. Read the spec.

I'm pretty certain this is false. I'm pretty sure there is one J1772/CCS PLC that uses the control pilot and ground pins. It is always used for DC charging and can optionally be used for AC charging. By default, AC charging falls back on the older and simpler analog control pilot signal.

Please link to the specs that say otherwise and give page numbers supporting your claim.

The known details of Tesla's Supercharger CAN signaling are discussed on this thread:
Supercharger protocol for diy CHAdeMO adapter

These images show the pin assignments for a CHAdeMO plug:

And a J1772 CCS plug:

Here is a North American Tesla inlet:

I don't have a fancy graphic for it, but I believe the top two pins are equivalent to J1772 pins 1 and 2 (L1 and L2) for AC charging and pins 6 and 7 for DC charging. The three lower pins from left to right are the control pilot, ground, and proximity which are labeled as pins 4, 3, and 5 on the J1772. The digital data communications is modulated using pins 4 and 3 for both Tesla Supercharger CAN and for J1772 PLC.

In order for a simple passthrough CCS adapter, the Tesla vehicle side just needs to distinguish whether "Supercharger CAN" or CCS signaling is being started and I think the earlier thread I linked to indicates that this could be possible.

 

[PRJIM]

What you post is not the spec, It costs a few hundred dollars and can be obtained from JISC. Google Mennekes CCS. The two conductors cannot be used for DC charging according to J1772 spec. The additional pins on CHAdeMO are for CAN communication. This is much different than PLC.

Tesla does not use PLC for DC charging and all the pins are used on the combo plug when DC charging. (i.e. the top 2 ac pins).

 

[Ingineer]

OT warning, but I'm familiar with all the charging standards, and I believe it's possible to build a CCS adapter to Tesla. Even without Tesla's cooperation it could be done. The PLC would be done in the adapter, and it would then translate this to/from the single ended CAN signalling Tesla uses for the Supercharger protocol. Now can we go back to Lucid?

 

[wycolo]

Half the SCs are rural and rarely have more than 2 cars charging simultaneously. So it would be quick and easy for Lucid/VW/GM etc to design a fast DC charge connection that could operate off the Tesla power setup with 400 vdc and 125kw as delivery maxims. So either one Tesla arch would be replaced by a newfangled arch or else dig and install additional arches for Lucid/VW/GM etc. This would give the New Consortium a great leap ahead in terms of national coverage for long distance travel.

Now I've been assuming that Lucid and Bolt would both be happy with [400vdc <=> 125kw] but in light of prior thread discussion maybe this is not possible*. But if just new inverters is all it takes to power the new arches it would be much simpler than building out a whole new DC network across the Continent(s).

*engineering input needed.
--

 

[Cattledog]

Of those who went to the Reveal - I don't think it's unreasonable of me to assume the invite was at least partly because you knew "Someone"...can you share whether there is amity or friction between Lucid and Tesla and, thus, some or zero possibility that Lucids might possibly be set up to use Tesla SpCs?

I went (and met Gene there) and had a similar experience. Everyone was very complimentary of Tesla, while also not leaning heavily on that as they are trying to forge their own path and identity. I did also hear that the charging system/standards were still an open question, so there is a chance that they might join. I heard 40 of the 300 there were part of Tesla, so lots of DNA.

 

[Jeff N]

What you post is not the spec, It costs a few hundred dollars and can be obtained from JISC. Google Mennekes CCS. The two conductors cannot be used for DC charging according to J1772 spec. The additional pins on CHAdeMO are for CAN communication. This is much different than PLC.

Tesla does not use PLC for DC charging and all the pins are used on the combo plug when DC charging. (i.e. the top 2 ac pins).

I believe the original context for this discussion was for North American DC charging. I'm clearly referring to the North American Tesla and J1772 connectors. I'm less familiar with the European connectors and make no claim about them.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying earlier but I believe everything I wrote is correct. I'd like to know if/where I misstated anything. Please identify any specific items which are incorrect in my description above.

Maybe you are under the impression that the J1772 PLC (Power Line Communication) is carried on the J1772 power pins? It isn't. It's carried on the control pilot pin (as indicted by the reference to HPGP or Home Plug Green PHY in the J1772 plug image that I embedded earlier).

J2931/4A: Broadband PLC Communication for Plug-in Electric Vehicles - SAE International

This document deals with the specific modifications or selection of optional features in HomePlug Green PHY v1.1 (HomePlug GP1.1) necessary to support the automotive charging application over Control Pilot lines as described in SAE J1772™.

Any discussion after that can be taken to another thread.

 

[RobStark]

btw You can still reserve 1 of 255 Lucid Motors Launch Edition Aires.

 

[green1]

btw You can still reserve 1 of 255 Lucid Motors Launch Edition Aires.

That doesn't bode well...

 

[Dan_A]

Just found some interesting news on Lucid's new factory they are planning to build.
City annexes, rezones land for Lucid plant

 

[gene]

Very interesting reading sent to me by my friend at Lucid:

Lucid Sound: Harmony in Motion