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4. With it he and the rest of the critical management team walk away and make use not only of that capital but.......THE FREE USE OF ALL TESLA'S PATENTS to create a little company they're going to call, let's say, Tezla Motors.

This is a critical point. If Elon Musk and a bunch of the top people all walked away, Tesla would collapse in on itself. It would take a while for a reborn Tezla (or whatever the new company would be called) to come back to production, but they can and would do it.

Here is a view from a Rockefeller

Tesla Motor's Elon Musk is energy innovator in spirit of John D Rockefeller

Anyone who doesn't know John D. Rockefeller, the richest private person in entire known history, and Musk's parallels to him, should do some homework.

There is one big difference though, Elon Musk is not making his wealth in the same way Rockerferller did. Rockerfeller was the king of the robber barons and made most of his money squeezing the competition out with dirty tricks. Elon Musk may become the biggest player in the car market, but if he does, he will do it the same way Steve Jobs became the biggest player in the phone market, by out innovating the competition, not by playing financial games.
 
1. That a KIO or SIF or any of the other sovereign funds could successfully mount a hostile takeover is possible only in theory.
2. That they or any other hyper-deep-pocketed organizations would want to is even less likely.
3. Were it to occur I would rejoice, not mourn.

Here is why:

With few exceptions, the operations and structure of the funds are such that they are run quite independently of the forces that generate their base moneys. This is the weakest of arguments, as the conspiratorially-minded always can look to nefarious deeds by the Emir of Durka-durkastan as changing her mind, and so on.

More appropriately, as Crown Prince Mohammed has revealed, the O&G-based funds are actively and have a deep history of looking for opportunities to diversify away from their traditional revenue sources. These peoples are playing a very, very long game. The non O&G funds include the ForEx-rich centers like China, HK and Singapore. The latter two are far too-well experienced in the world of business to have any interest in such shenanigans; that leaves only China. I'll state unequivocally right here that the possibility that China would be permitted to a hostile takeover of a successful Tesla Motors is exactly zero, regardless of what political parties are in control of what portions of D.C.

Tesla's equity ownership is a lot less liquid than would be required for a hostile takeover. We can posit, first, that Mr Musk's 37% (is that the correct amount? I know it's close). Other insiders bring that to about 40%. Devoted "super-long" individual investors hold, at a guess, 5%. FMR controls about 10% and other US-based fund management companies another 20-25%.

Now, of these those fund management companies can and rightly should be considered swayable. Their fiduciary responsibility is to their fund shareholders, never to corporate management. Leaving them out, however, it remains all but impossible to amass a 50% stake. More fundamentally, however, is that there are no plausible scenarios under which a sovereign fund's representatives could be shown to claim a seat on a TM board. Such actions occur only during conditions of corporate weakness; never during strengths. And Tesla is definitely not the former, irrespective of any bear claims of cash flow crunches.

Most wonderfully delicious of all, however, is that Tesla long since has guaranteed, through a gaspingly audacious move, that a hostile takeover could not occur. Which is.....bear with me now and we'll take a walk down Improbability Lane:

1. Hostile Fund X mounts a takeover attempt. How much for the shares? $500 won't do it - that's a mere doubling of current prices. $1,000? Bare minimum but let's go with that.

2. Oops. There's a 30-million-odd short overhang. Mother Of Squeezes occurs; all of a sudden we're talking meltdown numbers here: let's bring the price to $5,000 per share and that's likely to be conservative.

3. Not only does my portfolio leap into the HolyMoly category, as do those of most on this forum, but Mr Musk is the cashed-out!!!! wealthiest person on the planet.

AND....

4. With it he and the rest of the critical management team walk away and make use not only of that capital but.......THE FREE USE OF ALL TESLA'S PATENTS to create a little company they're going to call, let's say, Tezla Motors.


QED

Have I placated your concerns?

Very helpful -- thank you. You have at least partly placated my concerns.

I agree with you and wdolson that the 'open source' patents are key and mean there is always another Tezla on the horizon if something happens to Tesla. That is especially true after March 31 -- if someone wanted to strangle Tesla's vision they needed to do it when it was in its crib, not a strapping teenager.

But I am not sure that there is no path to a takeover of Tesla by someone less motivated than Musk to accelerate adoption of EVs. I do think this is a low probability, at least as long as Musk is CEO. I believe Musk has something closer to 27% of the stock than 37%. Merger premiums are pretty low nowadays, the average is under 50% based on some quick net surfing. And I am always surprised by the short term time horizons of most investors. I wouldn't be surprised if the average investor wouldn't jump for joy at a 100% premium, and be happy with something less than that. And with a very volatile stock price that could mean 350 or 400 instead of 500.

And I also appreciate what you have to say about the SWFs. I don't know very much about them but I do know that most people tend not to bite the hand that feeds them. Tesla is about to inflict some serious pain on countries that are dependent on oil revenues. Solar and wind are not even close to the threat to oil that EVs are. So I would feel better if the SWFs stuck with the VWs of the world and steered clear of significant stakes in Tesla.

A takeover of Tesla would not stop the EV revolution, but it could sure slow it down. And from my selfish perspective as an investor, I would be very disappointed to be pushed out of TSLA for the price of a merger premium and miss out on the train ride I see coming for the next ten years.

I did read somewhere that Tesla's bylaws require a 2/3 vote to approve a takeover/buyout but have not been able to confirm yet. If so, Musk would still have the power to stop it as long as he doesn't get too diluted in upcoming cap raises. In any case, I do agree this is a low risk for the reasons you mention.
 
Well, I for one cannot refute your comment about most investors having short-term time horizons. You might be more tranquil if you surf the net to learn how quickly governments become chauvinistic when a keystone corporation gets nibbled at by a foreign entity. As I wrote in the initial post, nohownoway would China be permitted to take control of a robust Tesla; in my very considered opinion that also would be the case with a Petro-Sovereign Fund.
 
Hmm, pretty interesting point about capturing oil and gas revenues. In some respects that is what Solar City and Tesla Energy is about, but apply a $5 per charge to Model 3 use of the Superchargers and off you go. Would be very easy for tesla to do since the supercharger and car already do a handshake. All they would need to do is have your credit card on file and they could seemlessly do this in the background
 
Well, I for one cannot refute your comment about most investors having short-term time horizons. You might be more tranquil if you surf the net to learn how quickly governments become chauvinistic when a keystone corporation gets nibbled at by a foreign entity. As I wrote in the initial post, nohownoway would China be permitted to take control of a robust Tesla; in my very considered opinion that also would be the case with a Petro-Sovereign Fund.

I will let this one go. I was a little grumpy because Virgin America was bought out despite Richard Branson still owning 25% of the stock and 20% of the voting shares (not much less than Elon's TSLA stake). It is by far my favorite airline and the only other deep and long stock I owned alongside TSLA (everything else is diversified). I thought both were good "10X in 10 years" bets which are tough to find, but had to settle for the merger premium on VA (first world problem if there ever was one).

But I'm over it now. Monday morning I sold all my VA and doubled down on TSLA. So far that's working out ok. Hopefully in a few years when the market cap hits $300B+, I'll be enjoying retirement like rdalcanto, preferably on a nice beach somewhere. :cool:
 
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Got it....but...you might enjoy the new Alaska Airline-VirginAmerica tie up. AK Air is pretty good!

And...I won't moderate out this set of posts, but we're pretty off topic here.... ;)
 
Elon said Tesla will have the Market cap of Apple. If he is off by even a factor of 2 or so, and it gets to 300 Billion, I will retire that day, and will happily get my first and only Tattoo - The Tesla T logo. :)

Seems to me that Tesla will eventually have a market cap at least 3 times that of Apple.

Both companies are marketing to the same mid-to-high income segment of the world population, both have transformative products, customer loyalty and high brand value that will enable both to maintain price premiums and good margins, despite both having significant competitors. Tesla and Apple are remarkably similar consumer product companies going forward, although obviously Apple is much further along its growth curve.

But the big difference is that the revenue potential of Tesla is ultimately much higher than Apple (with respect to their core products of cars and phones/computers). The potential mid-to-high income customer base is about the same, but the annual spend of that customer base on cars is multiples of the annual spend on phones and computers.

If Apple really opts to manufacture its own electric car, then this gets more interesting. But Apple does everything at its own deliberate pace. Tesla will have a substantial first mover advantage in electric cars for Apple to contend with.
 
As many have pointed out, Apple is in a high margin market while Tesla is in a low margin market. Though Tesla makes a bigger profit per car than most auto makers do. I expect that to change at Tesla matures and the competition begins to catch up. Over the long haul Tesla will likely be a low margin product like other auto makers.

They are both disrupters in their market niche and both have a very strong and loyal following. Both also make good products. As much as I hate Apple's OSs, their hardware is some of the best made in the computing industry.
 
As many have pointed out, Apple is in a high margin market while Tesla is in a low margin market.

Respectfully disagree.

Consumer electronics (including the computing kind) was (and still is) a very low margin market. Apple 'disruption' was to create healthy margins within that market with Product lust on a massive scale.

Technologically induced disruption is by definition, a conversion of established low margin industries to higher margin; transformed via product price/performance with a craved value proposition, on a massive scale. That's Tesla by any definition.

Eventually of course the disruption gives way and as you say competitors absorb higher margins to return the industry to a candidate for the next disruption. Albeit with new players as dominant players (Apple vs Sony) (Tesla vs GM). The old companies may or may not survive it, but either way, investors in the disruptor make money on the transformation

JMHO
 
Respectfully disagree.

Consumer electronics (including the computing kind) was (and still is) a very low margin market. Apple 'disruption' was to create healthy margins within that market with Product lust on a massive scale.

Technologically induced disruption is by definition, a conversion of established low margin industries to higher margin; transformed via product price/performance with a craved value proposition, on a massive scale. That's Tesla by any definition.

Eventually of course the disruption gives way and as you say competitors absorb higher margins to return the industry to a candidate for the next disruption. Albeit with new players as dominant players (Apple vs Sony) (Tesla vs GM). The old companies may or may not survive it, but either way, investors in the disruptor make money on the transformation

JMHO

Your humble but oh so correct opinion.

What intrigues me even more with Tesla is I feel they're showing signs of not being afraid of keeping up the innovating even when they could slow down and reap the profits in the new market segment they've created for themselves. What I mean is whenever the inevitable transformation of the high-margin slice of the market in to a more competitive thus lower margin situation Tesla are already going to be two steps ahead in to new uncharted virgin territory, looking for the next disruption of an existing market or perhaps inventing a completely new industry. I know Jerome Guillen misspoke when he said reckless growth but the saying stuck with me.

Right now Tesla are doing what every economics professor would dissuade them from: going full throttle in to building a mass market (albeit upper mass market) car with half the ASP and liwer margins of what they're currently selling in a market without competion (the long range luxury BEV market that is). But I'm sure in retrospect it will prove to be a genius move, including strictly financially and for Tesla investors.
 
OK, good point that Apple is a high margin seller in a market with a lot of low margin players.

Often going against the experts can result in disaster, but major changes also happened because someone broke the rules. Amazon was an online book seller with dreams of becoming a major retailer of everything. Back in 1997 few people except Jeff Bezos thought that was possible, but look at them today.

IMO, Tesla's strategy has been brilliant. Not only do the Model S and X fund the development of the Model 3, but being priced out of the range of most people, there is a huge crowd outside staring in longingly. I got a taste of that last summer when we had a big weekend get together at our house. I made a point not to mention Tesla, but someone else did and suddenly all but one person was going on how they wanted a Tesla. One woman said it's either a brand new Tesla or her old beaten up Ford Focus and nothing else appeals.

A few weeks later I had to take a taxi ride and the driver mentioned something disparaging about electric cars. I commented that Teslas were nice and he spent the rest of the ride praising Teslas and telling me how much he lusted after one. He just hated all other electric cars.

Last weekend we went out to dinner with my SO's law partner and his family. When we pulled into the parking lot I spotted a brand new Model S P90DL with paper plates. His six year old daughter who has never shown the slightest interest in cars immediately blurted out "I want a Tesla!"

Those instances told me that Tesla has a massive potential market who's only reason they haven't bought is the price and once that barrier was gone, the floodgates were open and there was no going back. The entire public isn't ready yet, but enough to keep Tesla going for a long time to come once the Model 3 comes out.

There currently is no mass market for long range BEVs below $50K, but that's only because the Model 3 isn't there yet. The customers are lined up and waiting.

Some people are skeptical that a huge percentage of those who plopped down a deposit on a Model 3 are going to convert it into an order, but there are also people who are interested, but aren't going to do anything until they can actually experience the car first hand. I'm in the market for a Model S, but I have very long legs and long trips are agony for me if the seat doesn't go back far enough. I would never buy a car I couldn't sit in and see if it had enough leg room first. The Model S has plenty for me, but I don't know about the Model 3 and won't until I can sit in one. Every other car the size of a Model 3 I've sat in doesn't have enough legroom.
 
One way to consider the AAPL market cap is to wonder when tesla could do about $250B in revenue, with ~$100B in gross profit and $70B in net income before taxes.

Since Tesla is looking at a 20%-25% gross margin vs. AAPL's 40% they will need to have higher revenues than $250B. Let's say $400B. If the average car is ~$60,000 then you need about 6.5million cars a year.

In 2014 VW sold about 9.8m for the #1 spot. 6.5m is roughly #4 (GM) and well ahead of either Honda or Nissan (about 4-4.5m). For reference Mazda was #15 at 1.2m.

Of course Elon's mission to replace the ICE so this is well of the realm of possibility. However tesla will probably need 5-7 automotive plants and 5-7GF to get there. I believe Elon & JB have mentioned this multiple times.

This is why I am hoping for announcement of a new plant or GF this year. And next year, and the year after that, and then by 2018 or 2019 at least one of the larger automotive companies go bankrupt, are purchased by Tesla and refitted for EVs.

That's about the fastest way to AAPL market cap that I can think of
 
One way to consider the AAPL market cap is to wonder when tesla could do about $250B in revenue, with ~$100B in gross profit and $70B in net income before taxes.

Since Tesla is looking at a 20%-25% gross margin vs. AAPL's 40% they will need to have higher revenues than $250B. Let's say $400B. If the average car is ~$60,000 then you need about 6.5million cars a year.

In 2014 VW sold about 9.8m for the #1 spot. 6.5m is roughly #4 (GM) and well ahead of either Honda or Nissan (about 4-4.5m). For reference Mazda was #15 at 1.2m.

Of course Elon's mission to replace the ICE so this is well of the realm of possibility. However tesla will probably need 5-7 automotive plants and 5-7GF to get there. I believe Elon & JB have mentioned this multiple times.

This is why I am hoping for announcement of a new plant or GF this year. And next year, and the year after that, and then by 2018 or 2019 at least one of the larger automotive companies go bankrupt, are purchased by Tesla and refitted for EVs.

That's about the fastest way to AAPL market cap that I can think of

In fairness, when Apple first hit $700 in Sept. 2012, it had a "mere" $156.5B in net sales and $41.66B in Earnings. By the numbers: Apple’s fiscal 2012 annual report

If Tesla continues growing revenues at 50% per year or something approaching that it is reasonable to expect a P/E well above 20, so it could hit the same valuation at significantly lower revenues/EPS than Apple had in 2012.
 
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GM Delivers its Second Consecutive Year of Record Global Sales

DETROIT
– General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is reporting its second consecutive year of record global sales. In 2014, the company and its dealers delivered 9,924,880 vehicles around the world, surpassing by 2 percent the record set in 2013.

General Motors Reports Calendar Year 2014 Net Income Of $2.8 Billion

In 2014, revenue increased $0.5 billion to $155.9 billion, compared with $155.4 billion in 2013.

Full-year net income attributable to common stockholders dropped $1.0 billion to $2.8 billion, compared with $3.8 billion in 2013. In 2014, full-year net income was also impacted unfavorably by recall-related pre-tax costs of $2.8 billion, or $(1.07) per diluted share. Income tax expense in 2014 was favorably impacted by recall-related costs and special items.

The drop in net income caused earnings per share diluted to drop $0.73 to $1.65 from $2.38.

Full-year EBIT-adjusted was down $2.10 billion to $6.5 billion, compared with $8.6 billion in 2013. For 2014, full-year EBIT-adjusted includes the impact of $2.8 billion for recall-related costs and restructuring charges of $1.0 billion.
 
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GM Delivers its Second Consecutive Year of Record Global Sales

DETROIT
– General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is reporting its second consecutive year of record global sales. In 2014, the company and its dealers delivered 9,924,880 vehicles around the world, surpassing by 2 percent the record set in 2013.

General Motors Reports Calendar Year 2014 Net Income Of $2.8 Billion

In 2014, revenue increased $0.5 billion to $155.9 billion, compared with $155.4 billion in 2013.

Full-year net income attributable to common stockholders dropped $1.0 billion to $2.8 billion, compared with $3.8 billion in 2013. In 2014, full-year net income was also impacted unfavorably by recall-related pre-tax costs of $2.8 billion, or $(1.07) per diluted share. Income tax expense in 2014 was favorably impacted by recall-related costs and special items.

The drop in net income caused earnings per share diluted to drop $0.73 to $1.65 from $2.38.

Full-year EBIT-adjusted was down $2.10 billion to $6.5 billion, compared with $8.6 billion in 2013. For 2014, full-year EBIT-adjusted includes the impact of $2.8 billion for recall-related costs and restructuring charges of $1.0 billion.
I don't understand the relevance of this 15-month-old article?