Let's say you drive it like you stole it.

[neroden]

I will just chime in to say that high acceleration from 0 to the speed limit isn't going to affect your range much if at all.

I see some fairly monumental peaks in watt-hours/mile (over 1100 wh/mile) when I floor it from 0 to 50 directly up an 8% slope (fun), but the period of acceleration just doesn't *last* long enough to affect the range much. If the 8% slope continued for miles, it would be another matter.

If you're the sort of person who soups up your BMW, you probably actually want Performance Plus. (Most of us don't care.)

 

[yobigd20]

I can answer this. I have a P85. It's no secret I guess people would classify my driving style as "fairly aggressive". Though I drive at hours of the day that nobody's on the road (4:30am). I wouldn't typically weave in and out too much, mostly left lane all the way. I might be aggressive but I'm not stupid (although some would argue that to drive at the speeds that I drive is stupid...). The only time I really go around cars is when someone is driving really slow in the left hand lane with nobody in front of them and they won't move (which, unfortunately, is ALL THE TIME in NJ thanks to NJ+NY drivers). Otherwise in traffic I'm content with staying in the left because it's usually not going to get me anywhere by doing fast and furious type driving. THAT kind of driving is the dangerous kind IMO.

Anywho, so I've put on almost 6000 miles in a little over 60 days now. Mostly highway driving. Mostly at speeds that would quality for careless/reckless driving (25+mph over limits). Cruise control set between 85-95mph for a majority of it. At those speeds, I use about 142 miles range to go 100 miles. FYI this is daily for me. Not a "once or twice a week" thing. Approximately 68-70% "efficiency" compared to "normal drivers" (non-aggressive). At that rate, a "standard charge" (not max range), will get me 170 miles. And that's really pushing the car hard, sometimes going up to 100-120mph (note: those speeds are *not* a daily occurance for me...only when I feel like having a bit of fun with other drivers when no-ones around, such as a Tesla Roadster, a Ferrari, Camaro SS, a Vette, and a few other cars I can't remember). I have gone up to 125 twice (haven't reached 130 yet...one day when nobody's around I'll see if I can hit it).

So basically, in a nutshell, to answer your question, for a "have at it" driving profile, expect to get 170 miles on a standard charge. Also, spend the extra $$ and get the P85. It is well worth it, especially for the acceleration at high speeds. It is also important to note that I have the 19s on my P85. I opted for those instead of the 21s for many reasons:

1. increased range (expect that "170mile have at it range" to drop at least 10-15 if you have 21s, but the P85+ package may help there as the michelins are MUCH better)
2. comfort (the 21s ride harsher)
3. safety (hit a nasty pothole at high speeds with low profile tires and expect a blowout, already happened at least one TMC member)
4. RIM protection (between avoiding curb rash and bent rims on nasty potholes with the 21s)
5. flexibility (so many more tire options and availability for 19s than 21s)
6. maintenance and replacement cost (19's treadwear should last 1.5x-3x longer than the 21s, and tires are much cheaper),

I hope that helps. I also plan on replacing my 19" goodyears with 19" Michelin Primacy MXM4 LRR tires whenever I'm due for replacement.

 

[derekt75]

I am for regular 85, if you are the type of person that tinkers and drives fast:

1. not sure how true this is. but according to this forum, P85 is only faster from 0-30. when was the last time you cared for anything under 30MPH during performance driving ?
2. P85 comes with 21"... smaller diameter wheel is better for performance driving.
3. P85 comes with air suspension. it means you can't tinker it.

1. Which forum? The difference above 40 mph (416 hp vs 362 hp) is smaller than the difference below 30 mph (443 lb-ft vs 325 lb-ft), but the P85 is specified to be 15% more powerful at higher speeds than the 85. Besides, under 30 mph is great fun in real world driving.
2. The 19" wheels might have a slight advantage in weight/moment_of_inertia, but that's more than offset by the large difference in torque and power. The 21" wheels should have an advantage in cornering, so I think most would argue that they're "better for performance driving". Besides, you can always choose the 19" wheels on the P85 if you prefer.
3. I like the suspension on my Model S. I'd rather have a great suspension that I don't need to tinker with than one that I do need to tinker with to be satisfied. I haven't driven on the Model S regular suspension nor a tinkered version thereof, so I can't say if those would be better, but it seems like making a metal spring suspension better than the factory air suspension would be a challenge.

I think the only real disadvantage to the P85 is price (assuming you're not letting your teenage son drive it, in which case, yeah, go regular 85.

 

[brianman]

Isometimes going up to 100-120mph.... I have gone up to 125 twice (haven't reached 130 yet...one day when nobody's around I'll see if I can hit it).

Do you see an acceleration limiter (dashed line) around 115? Does it move lower above that speed?

 

[bellwilliam]

1. Which forum? The difference above 40 mph (416 hp vs 362 hp) is smaller than the difference below 30 mph (443 lb-ft vs 325 lb-ft), but the P85 is specified to be 15% more powerful at higher speeds than the 85. Besides, under 30 mph is great fun in real world driving.
2. The 19" wheels might have a slight advantage in weight/moment_of_inertia, but that's more than offset by the large difference in torque and power. The 21" wheels should have an advantage in cornering, so I think most would argue that they're "better for performance driving". Besides, you can always choose the 19" wheels on the P85 if you prefer.
3. I like the suspension on my Model S. I'd rather have a great suspension that I don't need to tinker with than one that I do need to tinker with to be satisfied. I haven't driven on the Model S regular suspension nor a tinkered version thereof, so I can't say if those would be better, but it seems like making a metal spring suspension better than the factory air suspension would be a challenge.

I think the only real disadvantage to the P85 is price (assuming you're not letting your teenage son drive it, in which case, yeah, go regular 85.

1. I stand corrected. MT test:
0-30 2.3; 1.7 sec
0-40 3.1; 2.4
0-50 4.0; 3.1
0-60 5.0; 4.0
0-70 6.1; 5.0
0-80 7.4; 6.3
0-90 8.9; 7.7
0-100 10.8; 9.5
PASSING, 45-65 MPH 1.9; 1.7

so from 50-100. 85 is 6.8 seconds vs. P85's 6.4 seconds. 0.4 second difference.
difference is more significant from 0-30, which is 0.6 second.


2. small wheels gives better performance in general. it is pretty common mods for people looking to go fast. see new Camaro Z28. track version has small wheels. in general, you want smallest wheels that will clear brake calipers.

3. as for air suspension. let me know next time you see F1, Indy, F2, F3 running air suspension. I am not saying there is anything wrong with air suspension. for a luxury car, they are great. but for performance driving (see thread title), air suspension is not the ticket.

 

[derekt75]

2. small wheels gives better performance in general. it is pretty common mods for people looking to go fast. see new Camaro Z28. track version has small wheels. in general, you want smallest wheels that will clear brake calipers.

3. as for air suspension. let me know next time you see F1, Indy, F2, F3 running air suspension. I am not saying there is anything wrong with air suspension. for a luxury car, they are great. but for performance driving (see thread title), air suspension is not the ticket.

2. low profile wheels give better performance on smooth roads. The 19" wheels are not nearly as low profile as the 21s. If you wanted to argue that a 245/35R19 tire was higher performance than a 245/35R21 tire, you might have a logical argument. but if we're comparing the stock 245/45R19 all season tire to the stock 245/35R21 ultra performance tire, the latter is higher performance.
I'm intrigued that your reference point is a Camaro. not a Veyron with 21" rims or a Veneno with 21" rears.

By the way, today's P85 doesn't come with 21" wheels included, so I think this is a non-issue for deciding between a P85 and a regular 85.

3. Air suspensions can do fine on the track.
http://www.tirerack.com/images/suspension/praxis/pdf/0311_scc_prax1.pdf
Improved Handling talks about an M3 with air suspension outperforming an M3 with metal springs.
but the title of the thread is about driving the car like you stole it, not about driving the car on a track.
Tracks generally don't have potholes, speed bumps, and other surfaces that require a somewhat more forgiving suspension.

I suspect Tesla would sell someone a P85 without air suspension if they really wanted one, so again, I don't think that's a good reason to not get a P85.

 

[bellwilliam]

2. low profile wheels give better performance on smooth roads. The 19" wheels are not nearly as low profile as the 21s. If you wanted to argue that a 245/35R19 tire was higher performance than a 245/35R21 tire, you might have a logical argument. but if we're comparing the stock 245/45R19 all season tire to the stock 245/35R21 ultra performance tire, the latter is higher performance.
I'm intrigued that your reference point is a Camaro. not a Veyron with 21" rims or a Veneno with 21" rears.

By the way, today's P85 doesn't come with 21" wheels included, so I think this is a non-issue for deciding between a P85 and a regular 85.

3. Air suspensions can do fine on the track.
http://www.tirerack.com/images/suspension/praxis/pdf/0311_scc_prax1.pdf
Improved Handling talks about an M3 with air suspension outperforming an M3 with metal springs.
but the title of the thread is about driving the car like you stole it, not about driving the car on a track.
Tracks generally don't have potholes, speed bumps, and other surfaces that require a somewhat more forgiving suspension.

I suspect Tesla would sell someone a P85 without air suspension if they really wanted one, so again, I don't think that's a good reason to not get a P85.

sigh..........only on EV and DUB forum, will one argue larger diameter wheel = performance......
but like you said, today's P85 doesn't come with 21" wheels, so I agree it is a non-issue.

as for the link you gave on Praxis. it says it went faster than STOCK M3 (by 0.3 second). it didn't compare to any other aftermarket coilover. I am also willing to bet you Praxis air suspension is not the more popular M3 aftermarket suspension mods.

 

[vfx]

Not to worry in an P85. 150 hard driven miles is a issue in my S60 but not at all in an 85kWh car.

What you'll end up doing when you get used to the way the car estimates range is drive it as fast as you can until the projected miles matches your remaining distance home. Even then you play mind games where you eat up extra power beating a Mercedes off the light and then making it up by slowing down a bit later until the projected range matches the remaining distance home again.

You are in control of your range, you are not a slave to the car's battery.

This was really well put. Roadster driving has been the same here (in LA) Hoot around all you want and be aware that the fun may (or may not) have ramifications. Also besides regulating the drive home when we got the Tesla, there were NO places to plug in 15 to 20 miles around our house. Now there are dozens. I always keep them in mind if I'm "having too much fun" just in case i need to stop just short of home for a few minutes of charging. So far I have never needed one.

 

[yobigd20]

Do you see an acceleration limiter (dashed line) around 115? Does it move lower above that speed?

I have never noticed this, but then again i am not really studying the meters when I'm going these speeds. Eyes on road! I only glacé down to look at speed , but I can try to take a look later tonight

 

[derekt75]

sigh..........only on EV and DUB forum, will one argue larger diameter wheel = performance......

Since it's the conventional wisdom that low profile tires have better performance, I suspect you'd find folks on a lot of car forums that believe that a 245/35R21 is generally higher performance than a 245/45R19 tire.

There are clearly limits to the rule, and I'd be surprised if a Model S with 245/15R25s outperformed one with 245/35R21s,
but conventional wisdom says that low profile tires corner better than higher profile tires.
So to just sigh at me and imply that I'm ignorant for suggesting that a 245/35R21 is generally higher performance than a 245/45R19 tire seems odd to me.

Anyone have any data to prove/disprove bellwilliam's claim that the 19s perform better on Model S than the 21s?

I started a new thread with this question:
Would 19s on a P85?

 

[Zythryn]

So I can count on you to pay the difference then yes?

How much did you spend customizing your BMW?
I only ask as I would hate for anyone to buy a car and be unhappy with it.
If you are dead set against not buying the performance or P+, don't, under any circumstances, test drive it!! ;-)

 

[yobigd20]

@brianman I forgot to repost. Yes I tested this. About 5 times. First time, yes I looked down @ 115mph and there was the dotted yellow line. The next 4 times I tried to watch and see at which point this dotted line appeared. It seemed to be I kept getting the line showing at 103/104mph. Any ideas what this means?

 

[ggr]

@brianman I forgot to repost. Yes I tested this. About 5 times. First time, yes I looked down @ 115mph and there was the dotted yellow line. The next 4 times I tried to watch and see at which point this dotted line appeared. It seemed to be I kept getting the line showing at 103/104mph. Any ideas what this means?

If at any time your expected range (based on the last 30 miles) goes below 30 miles, you'll get this dotted line. This is quite likely to happen after a few laps of a track, or if you wind up to very high speed for a while. It's a kind of bug, really.

 

[Mike K]

How much did you spend customizing your BMW?
I only ask as I would hate for anyone to buy a car and be unhappy with it.
If you are dead set against not buying the performance or P+, don't, under any circumstances, test drive it!! ;-)

I did test drive one... It was probably a tick slower than my BMW which is obscenely fast just like the P85. I've had an Audi A8 and a 360hp BMW 550 as well and both were slower though also enjoyable to drive. I'd rather have a full package than something that's just fast or something that just handles well. Unfortunately I'm just not willing to pay what Tesla wants for the P85 with the options I'd want (tech, panorama and sound studio). That's not a Tesla thing though... I just can't justify that kind of money on any car. I do have to justify the purchase to myself and I'd be doing that buy adding the gas savings to my current monthly payment...

Life is about compromises though... Much as I'd like to have a fully decked out P85 it's just not a prudent purchase for me to make. Maybe there's a test drive car sitting around somewhere with higher miles that I can take advantage of the deal on.

As far as what I have into my BMW... $1000. $500 for the tune, $100 for the intake $200 for the exhaust and carbon fiber diffuser and $200 for install of said parts. The car also only cost me 35k and meets all my needs so the Tesla is largely something I want versus something I need. It becomes more justifiable as I drive more miles however and with a move to LA I'd probably be putting $600 a month in my tank.

 

[brianman]

If at any time your expected range (based on the last 30 miles) goes below 30 miles, you'll get this dotted line. This is quite likely to happen after a few laps of a track, or if you wind up to very high speed for a while. It's a kind of bug, really.

By expected do you mean Projected? If so, then maybe. But I'm referring to seeing that at 115mph with over 200 rated miles.

 

[JerryNycom]

If at any time your expected range (based on the last 30 miles) goes below 30 miles, you'll get this dotted line. This is quite likely to happen after a few laps of a track, or if you wind up to very high speed for a while. It's a kind of bug, really.

Question: If it takes me about 70 miles to get to the track, I will have lost say about 100 miles of max range, which leave me with about 165. Will that effect my horsepower if I only have about half of the battery? Does the MS perform the same way at 50 miles of range verses being FULL at 265?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Question: If it takes me about 70 miles to get to the track, I will have lost say about 100 miles of max range, which leave me with about 165. Will that effect my horsepower if I only have about half of the battery? Does the MS perform the same way at 50 miles of range verses being FULL at 265?

Here's how a battery discharge curve looks like for a cells similar to the one in the Model S:

Immediately off a full charge (265 mile range, 100% SOC) the cell voltage is very close to the charging voltage (4.15V for the Roadster, probably the same for the Model S). This is when you see the highest battery performance. It quickly drops below 4V after that. The batteries also perform better when warm (not good for longer term life though), which is why the Roadster has a "performance charge" mode.

The nominal voltage of the cells are 3.6V and that's when the battery operates as advertised. From the chart that's about 50% SOC. Above that battery will perform better, below that worse. That's why quarter mile and 0-60 records are set at high SOC. But you don't see huge drops in voltage until about 5-10% SOC (it's gradual before that).

The half-power cutoff at 30 miles is designed to match that last 10% SOC (300 miles ideal * 10% = 30 miles), but it's actually a bug as ggr says, since it's mapped to your projected range instead of ideal range (so if you have an extremely high average Wh/mi as typical in track usage, the software limits your power to half even if your ideal miles is much higher than 30 miles). The "workaround" to this bug is to drive very slowly in circles between laps (to decrease the average Wh/mi).

There's another subtlety in this, which is that the peak power of the battery is likely higher than the 310kW motor requires, which means the pack can probably give the advertised performance specs (0-60 4.4, 1/4 mi 12.6) even below 50% SOC. We do know Tesla said the 40kWh pack can power a 175kW motor, which gives 372kW for the 85kWh pack at the same discharge rate. 3.6V*310kW/372V = 3.0V is the cell voltage that the pack can still provide the power necessary for 310kW motor output. That occurs at about 10-25%SOC depending on discharge rate on the attached chart.