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Karma -vs- Model S
- Thread starter doug
- Start date
I think it's well known that my problem with Fisker is the head guy himself. The exhaust thing is a prime example. Had it been placed where it SHOULD have been placed this wouldn't be such an issue -- as it stands, once again, form has triumphed over function to the detriment (IMO) of the end product.
I'm hearing the engine noise is no longer an issue (for those who don't mind the presence of an ICE), and if true that means the Karma delays were a very wise decision.
Group Think is to be avoided, but I'm going to have to take issue with much of this post. Of course this is a Tesla forum and most likely people are here because they are Tesla fans or customers. But I'd guess people prefer Tesla based on their technology rather than simple brand loyalty.
You are entitled to your option just as others are entitled to disagree.
Given the history, I'm fairly sure that all went out the window.
Umm.. no. The Model S starts with a Tesla designed (rather optimized) drivetrain (including the battery), then the rest of the car is designed around that. The Karma basically works from the other direction. Body designed by Fisker and then they try to fit in the drivetrain from Quantum Technologies. Given the fundamental differences in drivetrain technology and design philosophy, I really don't get the arguement you're trying to make. You've basically said this: take a car, rip out everything that makes it what it is, morph it into another car, then you have another car. Which is really not saying anything of value.
Starting a car company is quite an achievement. Actually delivering cars to outside customers (still pending) is quite and achievement. But discussions about practicality, technology, looks, or USP are exactly the point. This is a car forum, isn't it? Thinking a car is great just because it has a partially electric drivetrain, with out regard to the other things, would be unwise Group Think.
tdelta1000
Active Member
ljbad4life
Member
Yes I have! just went for a test drive on Sunday! What I can say is it seems quieter than before (from the videos). But I will say that the reps try to keep you from driving in the manner that created the most noise. They will tell you to switch into sport mode long before the battery is empty, this is when the ice sounded the worst.
I will say that the noise isn't where I want it to be for a car in this class, it still sounds tin(y) and doesn't sound refined. Don't get me wrong it isn't deafening, but it still detracts a bit from the experience. The turbo whistle is very noticeable. It handled extremely well and low end torque off the line is excellent. The front seats/seating room is pretty good, The rear is better than the pre production I have photos of. there is more knee room, the back is big enough for anyone 6'0 and shorter. I can say that toe room is tight under the front seats, but that could be because the seat was all the way down. The trunk is a little bit smaller than the pre production model.
The karma is a fine car, but everyone has a deal breaker. Interior room (front seats since I'm driving) and particularly trunk room stop me from buying a car. the car doesn't have to carry everything, but if it's 4 door then it should carry 4 peoples luggage for a weekend trip. I could see myself owning a Surf which addresses my trunk issue and the interior has even more space.
Glad you had the opportunity to experience the latest exhaust system version. My drive was the last scheduled drive of the day so I was given the long version with time to try various different situations. All were at a very low battery level. On the interstate at 65 to 70 in sport mode with about 6 miles battery remaining the exhaust was noticeable but not at all a problem to me. Switching back to electric and running down to about 3 miles remaining I then had the opportunity for a full power sport mode launch up a rather steep hill on a small road with trees on both sides. In this situation I heard much more exhaust and turbo noise but I really did not consider it much worse then what I would hear in my RX400h, where I would not hear as much exhaust but I would very much hear a frantically racing engine noise.
ljbad4life
Member
Rereading the earlier test drives by car and driver, the driver let the karma go to 0 miles left on ev range then switched (the karma forces you into)sport mode, that's when the loudest ICE noises were heard. You would have to run the battery down to 0 and then floor it. This places the ICE in a position where it would have to work the hardest to provide electricity to move the car and to put a buffer back in the battery.
When I drove it, I used the sport mode to get onto the highway (instructed to by the rep) the Karma was at 10 miles left and it wasn't horrible or deafening, but it was present (I imagine if the exhaust was at the rear, it would be pretty unnoticeable) but it's not what some people expect from 100k car and some people will have a huge problem with it, others won't be bothered at all. I wouldn't have a problem with it, but my uncle (an avid carphile)is all about exhaust notes and I would think he would loose his marbles over the sound. I think the ICE sounds like a 4cyl (which it is) and not a throaty and smooth v8/v10/v12 that people are accustomed to in the 100k club.
There seems to be a very narrow window of operation where the ICE and exhaust noise would be loudest, and many drivers are trying to replicate this during their test drives.
It's good to explore the 'performance envelope' of a vehicle before you buy it, but one has to wonder how often this worst-case scenario would be encountered during typical driving, and if an owner did find it annoying or offensive how quickly they would adapt to switch modes before 0% EV range to avoid it.
The Volt has its 'mountain mode' to put more charge into the battery before hill climbs etc., in part to avoid this issue (of needing sustained 100% propulsive power from the ICE).
It's good to explore the 'performance envelope' of a vehicle before you buy it, but one has to wonder how often this worst-case scenario would be encountered during typical driving, and if an owner did find it annoying or offensive how quickly they would adapt to switch modes before 0% EV range to avoid it.
The Volt has its 'mountain mode' to put more charge into the battery before hill climbs etc., in part to avoid this issue (of needing sustained 100% propulsive power from the ICE).
IIRC, GM worked hard to keep the sound of the ICE down. I remember them mentioning it during early test drives and reviewers stating that the sound had been quelled in production. The volt also doesn't stupidly have the exhaust right up front.
ljbad4life
Member
It really depends on the human factor whether or not that situation is encountered. Are drivers going to let the battery go to 0 miles (in an effort to drive most on battery) or will they switch over before.
The Volt's exhaust is at the rear of the car so that deadens the noise just by that fact alone. The volt is ~3700 lbs with a 1.4 4 cyl. The Karma is +5k lbs with a 2.0 turbo 4 cyl. Which ICE would strain the most to move their respective car?
Didn't mean to make it a Karma -vs- Volt thread, just pointing out how another plug-in hybrid mfgr addressed a somewhat similar situation.
Regarding sounds/noises, people who are all about exhaust notes may or may not care for the Tesla "warp-drive whine" sound. I wonder how audible even that would be in the Model S with its packaging the motor/inverter tightly together between the rear wheels. No question though that the Model S will have a big NVH advantage over the Karma whenever its ICE is running, regardless of where the exhaust pipe runs.
Regarding sounds/noises, people who are all about exhaust notes may or may not care for the Tesla "warp-drive whine" sound. I wonder how audible even that would be in the Model S with its packaging the motor/inverter tightly together between the rear wheels. No question though that the Model S will have a big NVH advantage over the Karma whenever its ICE is running, regardless of where the exhaust pipe runs.
I wonder how things may have played out if henrik had delivered the karma designs for the model s? With the skateboard platform, I'd imagine there would be much more space in the karma than there is now, though the lengthy proportions might have to change. The change might not be a bad thing though as I vaguely remember it mentioned that the length of the hood was necessary to support such a low slung car?
I think the s could use a bit more flair (though we haven't seen the betas), but I think the karma as the s may have been a bit much for me. Striking and noticeable in a crowd yes, but so is a freakishly tall person.
I think the s could use a bit more flair (though we haven't seen the betas), but I think the karma as the s may have been a bit much for me. Striking and noticeable in a crowd yes, but so is a freakishly tall person.
ljbad4life
Member
Yes the Karma is so low slung that the 21/22 inch wheels (plus wheel wells) almost touch the hood. No room for anything close to the wheel wells, that space is taken up by suspension parts so that leaves only the middle open. The ICE is mounted longitudinally (running the direction of length of the car) making the hood abnormally long.
Yeah, the looks of the Karma certainly are more dramatic. I've gotten somewhat used to the grill, so it doesn't bother me as much (a good thing, I suppose), so the look of the whole package is relatively appealing. But I've perhaps also gotten used to the looks of the Model S and I don't find its styling features that striking. If I were in the market, though, I'd definitely prefer the Model S.
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