It sounds like you are describing the "moose test". I'm curious which German cars beat or even tied the Model 3 in that test.
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Just got car - noticing more body roll on twisty roads than usual
- Thread starter AcesUp
- Start date
It sounds like you are describing the "moose test". I'm curious which German cars beat or even tied the Model 3 in that test.
CarlK
Active Member
You starts to sound like a troll. I don't know who designed the Model 3 but I remember for Model S Tesla team had the original engineer who designed the Ford GT chassis. Model S really had great handling with little or no body roll for a car this heavy. Can't even compare to the Model 3 even for my P85+ of course. The car I had before it was a Cayman S. BTW the car Randy Pobst drove was a stock performance.
Could I offer another possibility? You think your car may have some problems and you can let the service to take a look at?
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Valore
Member
CarlK
Active Member
@Valore
In the video @lotusland attached they eventually tested the Model 3 LR at entrance speed of 83 km/h (1:40) and said it holds the record of the Moose test at that point. 74 km/h was used in the initial trail when they did not have a good idea of how the car would react. It appears the more we dig into this the more impressive the Model 3 looks.
Looks even BMW M2 would fail at 80 km/h
Nice try BMW but no cigar.
In the video @lotusland attached they eventually tested the Model 3 LR at entrance speed of 83 km/h (1:40) and said it holds the record of the Moose test at that point. 74 km/h was used in the initial trail when they did not have a good idea of how the car would react. It appears the more we dig into this the more impressive the Model 3 looks.
Looks even BMW M2 would fail at 80 km/h
Nice try BMW but no cigar.
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Vendor - (Video) Tesla Track Mode Consultant Randy Pobst Tests Unplugged Performance Upgrades on Track at Tes
Here's a great discussion thread with videos from a pro race driver on comparing different performance model 3s with no mods vs mods. Obviously the ones with mods are better but he still has plenty of praise for the stock car and how it easily compares well and beats out things like BMW M3
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Because the Tesla parts catalog lists both old and new versions of parts.
That's why there's 3 different shock/spring assemblies for RWD, but only ONE for P. And one ONE (different) one for AWD.
Except with Tesla it was. When they had the longer descriptions it explicitly stated the "before date X" and "after date X" stuff.
I quote them in the previous thread that I thought you said you had looked at?
Because the Tesla parts catalog lists both old and new versions of parts.
That's why there's 3 different front shock/spring assemblies for RWD, but only ONE for P. And one ONE (different) one for AWD.
I'm not though. The catalog was very clear about these facts I'm citing to you.
It's still clear right now that P and AWD have different suspensions, explicitly so with shocks/springs for example, and heavily implied (and explicitly stated previously) for one of the sway bars (but not the other).
Here's the relevant parts of that old post from the other thread since you seem to keep claiming things it already disproves-
And today, right now, if you look in the parts catalog, while the date descriptors are gone, there's still a different part for AWD versus P for the front shock/spring assembly.
And still 3 different ones for RWD- so they don't "remove" older date parts, they include both old and new.
For AWD and P however there's only one each- since they've only every used one (different) part in each- and still do.
They are not the same part
Now that is what guessing looks like
Tesla does not advertise. At all. And is notoriously bad at documenting and describing their products and features- this has been discussed ad nauseum on other thread....often with people super frustrated at how little info Tesla publishes about the actual differences between options/trims/features/versions.
You've yet to give a single reason other than a performance difference Tesla would go through the time, trouble, and expense, to develop, manufacture, install, and stock, an entirely different shock/spring assemblies both front and rear just for the P versus the AWD.
Because the Tesla parts catalog lists both old and new versions of parts.
That's why there's 3 different shock/spring assemblies for RWD, but only ONE for P. And one ONE (different) one for AWD.
Except with Tesla it was. When they had the longer descriptions it explicitly stated the "before date X" and "after date X" stuff.
I quote them in the previous thread that I thought you said you had looked at?
Because the Tesla parts catalog lists both old and new versions of parts.
That's why there's 3 different front shock/spring assemblies for RWD, but only ONE for P. And one ONE (different) one for AWD.
I'm not though. The catalog was very clear about these facts I'm citing to you.
It's still clear right now that P and AWD have different suspensions, explicitly so with shocks/springs for example, and heavily implied (and explicitly stated previously) for one of the sway bars (but not the other).
Here's the relevant parts of that old post from the other thread since you seem to keep claiming things it already disproves-
And today, right now, if you look in the parts catalog, while the date descriptors are gone, there's still a different part for AWD versus P for the front shock/spring assembly.
And still 3 different ones for RWD- so they don't "remove" older date parts, they include both old and new.
For AWD and P however there's only one each- since they've only every used one (different) part in each- and still do.
They are not the same part
Now that is what guessing looks like
Tesla does not advertise. At all. And is notoriously bad at documenting and describing their products and features- this has been discussed ad nauseum on other thread....often with people super frustrated at how little info Tesla publishes about the actual differences between options/trims/features/versions.
You've yet to give a single reason other than a performance difference Tesla would go through the time, trouble, and expense, to develop, manufacture, install, and stock, an entirely different shock/spring assemblies both front and rear just for the P versus the AWD.
They “advertise” with their website descriptions. They advertise with “tweets”. They “advertise” through reviews.
So nothing has changed since they removed descriptions?
I said there might be differences.
But you are guessing it’s for a sport suspension. In fact, I bet it could be a more forgiving suspension due less sidewall on 20” wheels.
Just because parts exist doesn’t mean they are in production. Public catalog is to vague.
You can guess what you want I’ll guess what I want. I think it would be noted (advertised) in the highlights if it was significant.
Is it even speculated in the car magazine reviews? Not that they can guess much better.
Why is the thicker front sway bar being sold out of RWD cars. Maybe P has a thinner sway. Maybe that does fit to make it more forgiving for 20”.
Some differences might be due to higher torque. Like rear sway. So what’s in a P3D- it never said 0.39” drop. But you say descriptions said Performance, not PUP. I would bet it has the RWD sway (same rear motor HP).
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I don't believe so no.
With the descriptions the front shocks, for example, listed:
3 different RWD parts (with dates for when each was rolled out)
1 AWD part (for all cars ever built)
1 P part (for all cars ever built).
And without descriptions the catalog today lists... the same parts. Still with 3 RWD parts, 1 AWD part, and 1 P part. All different parts.
The public catalog makes it clear AWD and P get difference parts for one of the sway bars, and the front shock/spring assembly. Nothing vague there.
I'm not guessing though- I'm providing previously documented facts that your claim they all have the same parts/suspension is factually wrong.
You keep moving the goalposts from "no difference" to "no performance difference" to now...what, no "real" track benefit.
Maybe just admit your original claims have been debunked and move on?
And yet Tesla has often not noted significant features or differences as already mentioned. Or often taken quite a long time to update docs to do so. (see all the folks complaining about the AP documentation after EAP was discontinued)
On the other hand- maybe their mistake is just assuming too much knowledge on their customers part.
Generally speaking, lowering a car improves handling and reduces body roll.
And they mention the P comes with a lowered suspension. Which typically produces improved handling and less body roll.
Possibly they assume customers looking at the P already understand that.... (because again you've offered no other reason they'd develop, test, manufacture, and have to deal with the cost and trouble of an entire different part otherwise).
It doesn't. Since we know from when they had full descriptions only the non-P AWD got a different bar. (the PNs haven't changed, they just reduced the descriptions)
That doesn't really make any physical sense.
Lowering the car only 0.39" is not very significant. Now maybe it does have very different springs etc. and it so happens to land 0.39" lower. If the intent was to lower it, don't you think they would go at an least an inch?
How much less body roll would you get from lowering 0.39" inches?
You've offered no proof that the P+ has a "Sport Suspension". None.
You have evidence that parts "existed" that are different.
You have no proof of what is in production when. Or why they are different.
Haha I'm seriously not trying to troll or cause butthurt. Just expressing what I am noticing within a week of coming out of the AMG and Audi S cars. Again I am only noticing this at high speeds (> 70 MPH) on twisties. In city speeds it's quite good. Seriously, I'm not trying to hate on everyone's car here. It's more what I feel in the cabin. Maybe the car itself is perfectly putting me in a safe place but the cabin sensations I get at high speeds say otherwise
Thx for this and makes me feel better. It seems like the max entry point they used was 88 Km/hr (55MPH). What I'm experiencing is at higher speeds (>70 MPH)
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Can you show me where I ever claimed that?
No, of course you can't.
Another strawman of yours.
Let's review here- your replies to someone saying there are differences between the AWD and the P3D+ for suspension and sway bars-
mswlogo said:
That is factually wrong- having been directly debunked by myself and the Tesla parts catalog (not that you ever offered any evidence of any kind for a single claim of course.
mswlogo said:
Factually wrong as above.
mswlogo said:
Again factually wrong as shown to you via parts catalog. P3D+ and RWD are the same, AWD is not.
mswlogo said:
Again factually wrong, you having been shown different suspension parts exclusive to AWD and other parts exclusive to the P.
having been proven wrong over and over, with sourced facts- you refused to admit any error on your part, and then moved the goalposts here-
mswlogo said:
Except I never actually did that. At all.
You just made up something I never said- then claimed THAT was wrong.
That's called a strawman argument.
I even pointed out your objection made no sense as the only time I'd used the word "performance" at all was when I mentioned the parts catalog speced a part for the "performance" model of the car.
Then followed a dozen or more posts back and forth with my continuing to debunk your claims with facts, and you refusing to admit you keep being explicitly and factually incorrect going all the way back to your original "the suspension is all the same" claims, and moving the goalposts further and further- now moved to "significant" performance difference apparently.
It started where someone said to exclude Performance for "handling upgrades".
I asked why, because they are essentially the same.
Then you come up with all this "parts are different" nonsense, who cares.
So I guess you agree. The Performance does not have a "sport suspension" which is why Tesla never mentions it.
Other than it's a whopping 0.39" lower.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
no, you didn't.
You can tell because I just quoted what you actually said
What you actually said, repeatedly, was that they were exactly the same
that's factually wrong.
you...obviously.
Especially since you keep denying actual facts like the fact the parts are different and keep trying to change the subject.
It doesn't really matter what the max entry point is they are not commenting on body roll "feel". The point is, it did extremely well on this test. I agree it doesn't quite address your concern. But it is a valid "handling" test. I watched a Porche 911 video and the Model 3 AWD with Aero's did about as good if not slightly better. I'm sure the 911 had much better and wider tires.
CarlK
Active Member
There are three possibilities for what you have experienced.
1. You don't know how to drive. If you have issue driving on twisties what about when pushing it to limit on tracks like many have done?
2. Your car has problems and needs to be serviced.
3. You are just trolling here.
That the Model 3 does not have exemplary handling or only Germans know how to make good handling car is NOT one. Why? Because everything everyone, including every skilled driver, has experienced says that's not the case. BTW the last ICE car I owned was a Porsche Cayman S, argueably the best handling car in the industry, which I have also kept for two years, but rarely drove it, after I got my Model S P85+. Never miss it.
I also have no idea what you mean by twisties that you drove at >70 mph. It's not a twisty in my book if you can drive at that speed and come back one piece. Could you let me know name and section of that road so I can check what it's like on Google satellite map? I need to go have some fun there if that's close by.
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Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
It also might be something as simple as the seats and bio-dynamics of those other cars.
AMG and the S models of Audi have highly bolstered seats for their high performance offerings. They hold you pretty tightly, have dead pedals etc. The Model 3 is set up more as a comfortable touring sedan. This might be contributing to that different "feel"
The Model 3 is a pretty capable handling car, but as currently presented is tuned for cruising more than carving.
AMG and the S models of Audi have highly bolstered seats for their high performance offerings. They hold you pretty tightly, have dead pedals etc. The Model 3 is set up more as a comfortable touring sedan. This might be contributing to that different "feel"
The Model 3 is a pretty capable handling car, but as currently presented is tuned for cruising more than carving.
groovidad
Living the Dream!
I think they actually did at first. I had a P85 Signature for a while and I thought it drove very well. Coupled with the torque and power, it made for a very compelling package. I actually seriously considered buying it, despite the totally crap interior, old screen etc ... but then the SC screwed the pooch and that was the end of that.
Leaving out the power levels, to me they all felt exactly the same, with the exception of the steering, which I found to be quite clumsy on both AWD variants and alright on the RWD.
The moose test is a simple matter of the torque applied by the lateral acceleration being opposed by torque caused by the tire grip. Having the low CG that it has, gives the Tesla a massive advantage, but is says next to nothing about how the suspension and steering rack work, and it sure as hell says nothing about their feel (as in refinement, something that, no offense, a lot of people, both here and in general, are oblivious to).
Oh, and trolling /= expressing other opinions
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