Is anyone going to order a 2wheel drive model S?

[v12 to 12v]

The more I think about it, I still believe less is more when it comes to cars. Fewer parts means fewer issues when it comes to maintenance, repairs or accidents.
That is just one department where Tesla trumps the old guard.

 

[jerry33]

The extra range of the 4WD would make it appealing to me.

 

[breser]

If you're looking to maximize your range and ease road trips then paying less than 5% more for the 85D makes a lot of sense to get the extra 30 miles of EPA range. >85% of 85 buyers go D.

Tread carefully here. Note that the design studio goes from saying "265 miles range (EPA)" to "295 miles range at 65 mph" when you add Dual Motors to an 85. That's not a set of comparable numbers, though it's possible the EPA range will be even higher than 295. It's also possible the EPA number will be lower.

I wouldn't make buying decisions based on range yet.

 

[uselesslogin]

Tread carefully here. Note that the design studio goes from saying "265 miles range (EPA)" to "295 miles range at 65 mph" when you add Dual Motors to an 85. That's not a set of comparable numbers, though it's possible the EPA range will be even higher than 295. It's also possible the EPA number will be lower.

I wouldn't make buying decisions based on range yet.

So for what it is worth the Canadian site did put up comparable numbers and the 85D is exactly what Elon said, 10 miles more range. The 85 gets 285 miles @65 mph so the P85D is actually a 10 mile hit on range at only 275. This all makes sense now. I also think the 2012 85 actually got 265 miles @65 mph but they have been improving probably both motor control and the weight over time. Perhaps in a few months we'll see new EPA numbers for all models.

 

[calisnow]

I'll be getting AWD even though I don't want it or actually need it to drive in the snow - for one reason. CHP checkpoints in California at both Big Bear and Mammoth require AWD/4WD during snow storms - or you get the privilege of exiting your vehicle to put on chains. Skiing is my main hobby, and the Tesla is going to be my new skimobile in the winter (replacing my trusty, but gas guzzling Infiniti QX56 SUV).

I love sports cars as well, and would prefer rear wheel drive - but the reality of having to put chains on a RWD car on a powder ski day has me going with AWD.

 

[Vger]

There are a lot of drivers who prefer the handling characteristics of a rear wheel drive vehicle. Yes, I am a person who appears to be choosing to order the rear wheel drive version.

No one outside Tesla has driven the "D" yet, so we don't know independently what the handling characteristics are. I was a little disappointed that there was no demo of that at the event, but I guess there was not the space to do it safely.

I think the torque vectoring is going to be huge. In many people's hands, even the 85D may turn out to be more agile and possibly generate faster lap times than the P85.

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I love sports cars as well, and would prefer rear wheel drive - but the reality of having to put chains on a RWD car on a powder ski day has me going with AWD.

One of the greatest sports cars of all time, the original Audi Quattro rally car, was AWD. I do not see it as a penalty for "sports car" character. And the digitally-controlled dual motor arrangement is a whole new ballgame. We do not yet know how good it might turn out to be.

 

[SCDrJ]

I think having the same power of the S85 deliverable to all four wheels is going to make the S85D pretty awesome to drive. I loved my old Audi A4 quattro: it wasn't the most powerful car out there but heck if you couldn't just stomp on it in about any situation and just go fast! I don't need AWD weather-wise but I think this is going to be a killer car.

 

[Vger]

1. More range
2. Better traction
3. Quicker
4. Possible limp home if one motor breaks.
All this equals a greatly improved car for $4000. Seems like a bargain to me.

I also agree that $4k is kind of a bargain for so much benefit. I think that once people are test driving to compare, and reviews and such come out, I think the "D" configs will predominate, just as much as the 85 battery configs have dominated in the first 50,000+ cars.

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I think having the same power of the S85 deliverable to all four wheels is going to make the S85D pretty awesome to drive. I loved my old Audi A4 quattro: it wasn't the most powerful car out there but heck if you couldn't just stomp on it in about any situation and just go fast! I don't need AWD weather-wise but I think this is going to be a killer car.

Exactly. Distributing the torque to all four wheels is just better physics. Both RWD and FWD are compromises introduced by the mechanical complexity of doing AWD with an ICE.

 

[aronth5]

It will be very interesting to see how well the AWD works in the snow with and without snow tires? Owners have reported that RWD with snow tires works much better than an ICE vehicle with snows. Would anyone disagree that Tesla's AWD will simply be better than any ICE AWD, and likely significantly better. I don't believe that fact is well understood by naysayer's who simply claim that Tesla is finally catching up to their competitors with AWD. They haven't just caught up they now have a car with AWD that will be better than any ICE competitor. And the fact range is better surprised me. Imagine adding a 2nd gas motor to an ICE car and improving gas mileage at the same time!! So for anyone in snow country the D will be a no brainer for most. Maybe not all as indicated in this thread but I would expect over 80% especially with the increase in range for the regular 85.

 

[dhanson865]

So for what it is worth the Canadian site did put up comparable numbers and the 85D is exactly what Elon said, 10 miles more range. The 85 gets 285 miles @65 mph so the P85D is actually a 10 mile hit on range at only 275. This all makes sense now. I also think the 2012 85 actually got 265 miles @65 mph but they have been improving probably both motor control and the weight over time. Perhaps in a few months we'll see new EPA numbers for all models.

Model S comparison table (range sort, from US site)

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S60D 225 miles range 5.7 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
P85 265 miles range 4.2 sec 0-60 130 mph (odd duck with the lower top speed but better acceleration than the S85D)
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph (king of acceleration with some loss of range)
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph (king of range with no loss of top speed)

Model S comparison table (range sort based on US range, ranges in km from Canada site)

S60 345 km range 6.2 sec 0-100 190 km/h (345 km = 214.37 miles noticeably better range per CA site, US shows only 208 miles?????)
S60D 360 km range 6.0 sec 0-100 200 km/h (360 km = 223.69 miles slightly better range per US site of 225 miles, rounded to nearest 5 mile / 5 km number for looks)
S85 460 km range 5.6 sec 0-100 200 km/h (460 km = 285.83 miles noticeably better range per CA site, US shows only 265 miles?????)
P85 460 km range 4.4 sec 0-100 210 km/h (odd duck with the lower top speed but better acceleration than the S85D)
P85D 440 km range 3.4 sec 0-100 250 km/h (440 km = 273.40 miles slightly better range per US site of 275 miles rounded to nearest 5 mile / 5 km for looks again)
S85D 475 km range 5.4 sec 0-100 250 km/h (king of range with no loss of top speed, 475 km = 295.15 miles (similar range on both sites, within rounding/truncation of equal)


So the D ranges agree between US and Canada design studios but the old S60 and S85 show higher ranges on Canada site than US. I don't know why the differences exist but I still expect the P85 to disappear in 2015 from the design studio due to lack of interest as the D models edge it out.

The S60 and S85 might hang on for some time for people in warmer climates or flat land.

Myself living in an area with hills/mountains and 4 true seasons I'd love to have the D advantage but seeing as I can't afford one now I'll have to wait for a CPO, or the 3rd gen Tesla instead.

 

[Vger]

It will be very interesting to see how well the AWD works in the snow with and without snow tires.

I agree with most of this, but as a business colleague and experienced sports driver once said to me (in Minnesota), "every car has 4-wheel brakes, but without great winter tires, they cannot help you." AWD, mechanical or dual-motor will be about climbing hills and general stability. For stopping power, you have to have great tires.

 

[dhanson865]

I agree with most of this, but as a business colleague and experienced sports driver once said to me (in Minnesota), "every car has 4-wheel brakes, but without great winter tires, they cannot help you." AWD, mechanical or dual-motor will be about climbing hills and general stability. For stopping power, you have to have great tires.

I'll agree with that but would like to add that hybrids and EVs with regen, abs, stability control brake better on crappy tires than any car without regen.

Friction brakes are notoriously grabby when rusty, damp, cold and lead to control issues. Regen is smooth as silk no matter the condition/temperature of your brake rotors.

Adding 2 more wheels to the regen playbook will increase your stopping ability in many situations where you care about doing so quickly and/or in alignment with the path your front wheels desire to take.

Here is hoping you never are in a situation where that little bit extra stopping power / control matters.

 

[green1]

I'll agree with that but would like to add that hybrids and EVs with regen, abs, stability control brake better on crappy tires than any car without regen.

Friction brakes are notoriously grabby when rusty, damp, cold and lead to control issues. Regen is smooth as silk no matter the condition/temperature of your brake rotors.

Adding 2 more wheels to the regen playbook will increase your stopping ability in many situations where you care about doing so quickly and/or in alignment with the path your front wheels desire to take.

Here is hoping you never are in a situation where that little bit extra stopping power / control matters.

As a Canadian, I'm in a situation where that little bit extra stopping power / control matters every winter. and I'll tell you something, I'll take a RWD car with winter tires over a 4x4 or AWD with all seasons every single time. Most of the vehicles you see in the ditch in the winter are 4x4s and AWD. Too many people think AWD is necessary for winter, they're wrong, winter tires are necessary, a 2wd car will get you through pretty much anything if it has good rubber. As for regen, with the RWD Tesla, be careful, too much regen will cause you some interesting situations (I've seen several people recommend lowering the regen setting in slick conditions, and it makes perfect sense) with AWD they've hopefully moved more of the regen to the front wheels where it should be, however it's hard to say if regen is the right answer here either.

Don't get me wrong, AWD is great, but it's no substitute for good winter tires. (of course the two together is the best possible combination)

 

[Dockpp]

I will be getting S85 2WD. In georgia no clear need for AWD although added 30 miles of range is tempting. Also AWD would mean delivery in 2015 and thus losing georgia state EV credit worth $5000. So that would be a delta of $9000!!

 

[dhanson865]

As a Canadian, I'm in a situation where that little bit extra stopping power / control matters every winter. and I'll tell you something, I'll take a RWD car with winter tires over a 4x4 or AWD with all seasons every single time. Most of the vehicles you see in the ditch in the winter are 4x4s and AWD. Too many people think AWD is necessary for winter, they're wrong, winter tires are necessary, a 2wd car will get you through pretty much anything if it has good rubber. As for regen, with the RWD Tesla, be careful, too much regen will cause you some interesting situations (I've seen several people recommend lowering the regen setting in slick conditions, and it makes perfect sense) with AWD they've hopefully moved more of the regen to the front wheels where it should be, however it's hard to say if regen is the right answer here either. Don't get me wrong, AWD is great, but it's no substitute for good winter tires. (of course the two together is the best possible combination)

too much of anything is bad, that is why spreading it out over 4 wheels instead of concentrating it on 2 is a plus.

oh and as to winter wheels, I unfortunately live in the south but also at 1000+ ft elevation with tons of hills around me. We can go from 85F to 0F in 3 days time and be back to 50F the next day and 70F the day after.

Winter tires suck here because it's too warm for them most of our winter and the weather changes too quick for me to bother with two sets of tires.

You have every right to tell people in the west (mountains like CA or CO), North (all over), and NE corridor to use winter tires, they need them and can use them properly. I just live too far south to get good use out of them here.

When it snows this far south you come to appreciate regen, ABS, traction control because 99% of the cars on the road here are running all season tires even when there is snow on the ground.

 

[Tedkidd]

Be interesting to see if these cars delivering more even and moderate torque go through significantly less rubber.

I agree w vger. Torque vectoring can be amazing. Anybody that thinks rwd is more "sporty" might want to try an S4 for a day.

 

[green1]

Winter tires suck here because it's too warm for them most of our winter and the weather changes too quick for me to bother with two sets of tires.

You sound like a perfect candidate for winter tires. There is no downside to using them when it's too warm out, they won't suddenly stop working. In fact I was recently reading a study for Canadian ambulances recommending winter tires year round (too expensive to change and store tires for a fleet, but you wouldn't want to risk not having them on an ambulance in the winter) Turns out that you wear out the winter tires only a few percent faster doing that, but you get all the advantages in the winter.

Where I live (at almost exactly 1000m elevation (3000ish ft)) we average about -10c (14f) in the winter, but we frequently swing between -20c (-4f) and in a couple of HOURS we can be up to 10c (50f) sometimes higher. Winter tires go on sometime around the first snowfall, and come off again in April or May. I'd rather run them a little long than take them off too early.

I still say you'd be far better off with winter tires than trusting AWD. (ideally both, but the tires are far more important)

 

[tezco]

...Don't get me wrong, AWD is great, but it's no substitute for good winter tires. (of course the two together is the best possible combination)

As far as traction is concerned, in my experience, AWD with good all-seasons beats RWD with winter tires hands down, particularly on unplowed roads. Stopping distances are better with winter tires, but I just drive a little more slowly on ice to compensate, and I don't have to juggle two sets of tires and rims.

 

[green1]

As far as traction is concerned, in my experience, AWD with good all-seasons beats RWD with winter tires hands down, particularly on unplowed roads. Stopping distances are better with winter tires, but I just drive a little more slowly on ice to compensate, and I don't have to juggle two sets of tires and rims.

Actually no. the AWD may give a false sense of security, but it won't stop or turn as well as RWD with winter tires. There's a good reason that the AWD and 4x4s are the ones in the ditch in the winter, it's because many people mistakenly believe that AWD is enough and that they don't need winter tires.

Juggling a second set of rims and tires is easy, it's not expensive, and it might just save your life. For anyone in a climate that gets temperatures below freezing for more than a couple days a year there's no good excuse not to.

 

[dhanson865]

You sound like a perfect candidate for winter tires. There is no downside to using them when it's too warm out, they won't suddenly stop working.

You sound like someone that has never felt asphalt at 140F or higher.

If I try to drive winter tires year round they'll last maybe 10,000 miles and I'll be replacing them before a year is up.

What happens when you use your winter tires all year round? - Kal Tire - Your True Service BlogKal Tire Your True Service Blog
The risks of driving your winter tires year-round

• Faster wear and possibly uneven wear
On warm and hot road surfaces, a winter tire’s rubber compound will wear quickly, and because of the unusually fast wear, that wear may be uneven. Winter tires are meant to last two or three seasons, but when they’re on your vehicle 12 months in a row, you’re going to have to replace them a lot sooner.
• Poor performance on dry pavement
Winter tires are designed to give superior traction on ice and snow. On dry and wet roads, however, you’re sacrificing handling. In addition, winter tires in the summer will be squirmy and noisy.
• Fuel economy
Summer tires have a harder compound that makes them roll easily, and that means savings at the pump. You’ll definitely spend more on fuel by driving your winter tires year-round .

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/drivers-ed/driving-winter-tires-year-round

Faster Wear in Non-winter Driving Conditions
The specialized compounds and tread designs of winter tires are not designed for optimal warm climate performance and wear. They are made with more pliable rubber compounds, allowing them to remain soft in cold wintery road conditions.
Generally speaking, the softer tread of a winter tire will wear out faster in warmer temperatures. If you keep winter tires on your vehicle after winter has come and gone, you will have to replace them sooner than had you removed them for springtime.
That’s why using snow tires year round is more expensive than mounting them seasonally. The sooner they wear out, the sooner you have to replace them.

seriously I have need of winter tires 0 to 7 days a year. If I had money to burn I'd be more likely to have Summer tires and All season tires as a two set rotation than I would to have Summer + Winter or All Season + Winter. But honestly I don't have the money to burn on buying extra rims and tires. All Seasons literally are good enough here.