I voted with my wallet

[CLLACAB]

Hope you don't mind the long story, but I wanted to provide where I ended up....

My first experience with Tesla was a 2013 Model S P85 that I purchased with 19K miles in 2015. It was a great car. I kept it for five years until I had 80K miles and never had any issues except for the door handles and the center screen, which were both addressed as warranty items. In 2020, I sold our Chevy Volt and purchased a 2020 M3P. It was a fun car to drive. It was Multi-coat Red and with the exception of the equality of the paint, overall it was a good car. Under bright sunlight, the bumpers did not match the body color very well. I had a small rattle in the dash which Tesla fixed. My wife and I like Tesla’s so much, that in November 2021, we took delivery of a MYLR for her. It quickly became apparent that the MY was a better all-around car for us and we used it for all of our weekend errands, etc. I only used the M3P to commute to work. Since the SUV style seemed to suit our needs better, we decided to get a Model X Long Range and placed an order in February 2020 – a week before they raised the price another $10K. We planned on selling the M3P. We tend to follow the forum groups of our cars and since I was getting an X, I started to follow those comments. It soon became apparent that there were some issues which raised a concern for me in a six figure vehicle. Specifically, the rear half-shafts/wheel hop issue, which was known since 2017 and has not been addressed. In addition, the degradation of the Falcon door seals if you live in a hot climate – I live in Las Vegas. $2,400 to replace and considered a normal wear and tear item – not covered under warranty. I was also not a big fan of the Yoke, but was willing to deal with it. And then there are the subjective issues to deal with such as fit and finish, external levels of noise, etc. I decided to look at other options to see what else was out there. Taycan – too small/no range; Audi – limited range; Merc EQS SUV – dealers wanted $10K to $15K over sticker. I ended up ordering a BMW iX50 and cancelling the X. Yes, the front is “different”, but it grows on you after a while. The fit and finish is something the Tesla can’t even get close to. I have the full leather interior (sorry vegans), and it is very luxurious. Fully loaded it was $105K before tax, title, etc. It is extremely quiet – again, something Tesla struggles with. And with the Driver Assistance Professional package, I did not have to pay an additional $6K to be able to change lanes. However, the BMW has two negatives, but I was willing to accept them: The Tesla SC network is the best in the world. BMW provides two years of free 30 minute session with Electrify America, but they can be spotty on coverage. And the Tesla UI is much superior to the BMW UI. Lots of screens within screens to make changes. Once it is all set up, it’s not as bad, but it is not as intuitive to find things. With regard to range, with the 22” wheels I am rated for 315 miles. If you follow any of the range tests, it’s not uncommon to exceed this by 10%, vs the X where it is not uncommon to lose 10-15% for the actual range. Don’t get me wrong – I think Tesla makes some great cars – just not in the six figure range. The X is a good car, it’s just not worth the six figure price with the inherent issues that have to be dealt with. It’s interesting to note that on the BMW iX forums almost all of the buyers are coming over from Tesla’s – not satisfied with the general quality and the service center issues. Not advocating for anyone to purchase an iX, just thought I would provide a different perspective.

 

[T3SLAROD]

You’d think they would pay special attention to quality control of the X and S.

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

Hope you don't mind the long story, but I wanted to provide where I ended up....

...

My observations in regard the MY and M3 are similar to yours. We use our M3 for local runs and the MY for "serious" road travel (mostly a 2X a year AZ~Cape Cod~AZ run). My only comment on your post would be, if you plan on doing distance travel in an EV I fear you will be unhappy using the DCFC system. I say this after both traveling from Cape Cod to AZ using Electrify America in a Chevy Bolt (2019 Premier) as well as using that system in my MY with an adapter.

I give lectures on EVs and I tell folks if they want a local use vehicle then buy whatever they wish and charge up at home. Otherwise there is no current, practical option than Teslas for distance travel.

Best of luck with the new car.

Rich

 

[CLLACAB]

Yes, charging could be a challenge. Fortunately, my trips will primarily be between Las Vegas and Los Angeles. The Baker, CA location las the latest EA chargers which have gotten great reviews. There is a interesting video on YouTube by Kyle from Out of Spec reviews. He does great EV reviews. He took an iXM60 (the performance version) from Colorado to San Diego and back. Great reviews on the vehicle - not so much on the EA network.

 

[T3SLAROD]

My observations in regard the MY and M3 are similar to yours. We use our M3 for local runs and the MY for "serious" road travel (mostly a 2X a year AZ~Cape Cod~AZ run). My only comment on your post would be, if you plan on doing distance travel in an EV I fear you will be unhappy using the DCFC system. I say this after both traveling from Cape Cod to AZ using Electrify America in a Chevy Bolt (2019 Premier) as well as using that system in my MY with an adapter.

I give lectures on EVs and I tell folks if they want a local use vehicle then buy whatever they wish and charge up at home. Otherwise there is no current, practical option than Teslas for distance travel.

Best of luck with the new car.

Rich

Your lectures must be filled with misinformation on other EV manufacturers.

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

Your lectures must be filled with misinformation on other EV manufacturers.

Yup. 100%.

 

[Rice&Curry]

Hope you don't mind the long story, but I wanted to provide where I ended up....

My first experience with Tesla was a 2013 Model S P85 that I purchased with 19K miles in 2015. It was a great car. I kept it for five years until I had 80K miles and never had any issues except for the door handles and the center screen, which were both addressed as warranty items. In 2020, I sold our Chevy Volt and purchased a 2020 M3P. It was a fun car to drive. It was Multi-coat Red and with the exception of the equality of the paint, overall it was a good car. Under bright sunlight, the bumpers did not match the body color very well. I had a small rattle in the dash which Tesla fixed. My wife and I like Tesla’s so much, that in November 2021, we took delivery of a MYLR for her. It quickly became apparent that the MY was a better all-around car for us and we used it for all of our weekend errands, etc. I only used the M3P to commute to work. Since the SUV style seemed to suit our needs better, we decided to get a Model X Long Range and placed an order in February 2020 – a week before they raised the price another $10K. We planned on selling the M3P. We tend to follow the forum groups of our cars and since I was getting an X, I started to follow those comments. It soon became apparent that there were some issues which raised a concern for me in a six figure vehicle. Specifically, the rear half-shafts/wheel hop issue, which was known since 2017 and has not been addressed. In addition, the degradation of the Falcon door seals if you live in a hot climate – I live in Las Vegas. $2,400 to replace and considered a normal wear and tear item – not covered under warranty. I was also not a big fan of the Yoke, but was willing to deal with it. And then there are the subjective issues to deal with such as fit and finish, external levels of noise, etc. I decided to look at other options to see what else was out there. Taycan – too small/no range; Audi – limited range; Merc EQS SUV – dealers wanted $10K to $15K over sticker. I ended up ordering a BMW iX50 and cancelling the X. Yes, the front is “different”, but it grows on you after a while. The fit and finish is something the Tesla can’t even get close to. I have the full leather interior (sorry vegans), and it is very luxurious. Fully loaded it was $105K before tax, title, etc. It is extremely quiet – again, something Tesla struggles with. And with the Driver Assistance Professional package, I did not have to pay an additional $6K to be able to change lanes. However, the BMW has two negatives, but I was willing to accept them: The Tesla SC network is the best in the world. BMW provides two years of free 30 minute session with Electrify America, but they can be spotty on coverage. And the Tesla UI is much superior to the BMW UI. Lots of screens within screens to make changes. Once it is all set up, it’s not as bad, but it is not as intuitive to find things. With regard to range, with the 22” wheels I am rated for 315 miles. If you follow any of the range tests, it’s not uncommon to exceed this by 10%, vs the X where it is not uncommon to lose 10-15% for the actual range. Don’t get me wrong – I think Tesla makes some great cars – just not in the six figure range. The X is a good car, it’s just not worth the six figure price with the inherent issues that have to be dealt with. It’s interesting to note that on the BMW iX forums almost all of the buyers are coming over from Tesla’s – not satisfied with the general quality and the service center issues. Not advocating for anyone to purchase an iX, just thought I would provide a different perspective.

As an 2019 MX owner, I agree the interiors of the car does not look like a 100K car.

 

[eleison]

Tesla cannot be everything to everyone right now. They are trying to go mainstream as fast as possible. Then, after that, they will refocus on the niche luxury market. Basically, tesla doesn't want to sell $100k cars to rich people since rich people are a small minority of the general population.

Tesla doesn't want to be just another luxury car maker like BMW (audi, merc, etc, etc).

Luxury car markers do not want to change society by electrifying ice cars. It's about the brand, the image, etc.. etc.. the luxury brands deals in exclusivity - the antithesis of Teslas core identity (EVs for everyone). Luxury car makers do not lower their prices by 10k to 15k over night

When tesla captures the majority of the market, it will re-pivot to the luxury market.

Good luck with your bmw. Kinda looks ugly to me though, but I'm sure it will grow on people.

It's funny when companies move down market, rich people get "Hella mad".... tbh, i can't wait until the tesla brand is no longer about "luxury" and exclusivity. It should be about a good, safe car that has tremendous value while at the same time helping transiting away from fossil fuels.

 

[bobbyjae]

In a few years the X5 will come in EV, hybrid, and ICE versions. The iX will be discontinued.

 

[T3SLAROD]

Tesla cannot be everything to everyone right now. They are trying to go mainstream as fast as possible. Then, after that, they will refocus on the niche luxury market. Basically, tesla doesn't want to sell $100k cars to rich people since rich people are a small minority of the general population.

Tesla doesn't want to be just another luxury car maker like BMW (audi, merc, etc, etc).

Luxury car markers do not want to change society by electrifying ice cars. It's about the brand, the image, etc.. etc.. the luxury brands deals in exclusivity - the antithesis of Teslas core identity (EVs for everyone). Luxury car makers do not lower their prices by 10k to 15k over night

When tesla captures the majority of the market, it will re-pivot to the luxury market.

Good luck with your bmw. Kinda looks ugly to me though, but I'm sure it will grow on people.

It's funny when companies move down market, rich people get "Hella mad".... tbh, i can't wait until the tesla brand is no longer about "luxury" and exclusivity. It should be about a good, safe car that has tremendous value while at the same time helping transiting away from fossil fuels.

Me too, I will be Hella Mad

 

[Genie]

Tesla cannot be everything to everyone right now. They are trying to go mainstream as fast as possible. Then, after that, they will refocus on the niche luxury market. Basically, tesla doesn't want to sell $100k cars to rich people since rich people are a small minority of the general population.

Tesla doesn't want to be just another luxury car maker like BMW (audi, merc, etc, etc).

Luxury car markers do not want to change society by electrifying ice cars. It's about the brand, the image, etc.. etc.. the luxury brands deals in exclusivity - the antithesis of Teslas core identity (EVs for everyone). Luxury car makers do not lower their prices by 10k to 15k over night

When tesla captures the majority of the market, it will re-pivot to the luxury market.

Good luck with your bmw. Kinda looks ugly to me though, but I'm sure it will grow on people.

It's funny when companies move down market, rich people get "Hella mad".... tbh, i can't wait until the tesla brand is no longer about "luxury" and exclusivity. It should be about a good, safe car that has tremendous value while at the same time helping transiting away from fossil fuels.

Tesla KoolAid
Predictions about what Tesla will or won’t do, why, and when, is anyone’s guess. Musks’s public statements about Tesla have not matched company history, I don’t think it’s wise to expect better accuracy in the future.
i disagree that Tesla’s core identity is EV’s for everyone, they are a for profit corporation and their identity is the pursuit of profits.

 

[Rice&Curry]

Any Auto company to be profitable needs to mass produce cars. To set up a manufacturing line requires a lot of capital and if you don't produce car in high volumes, it will never be profitable. Therefore if Tesla males Model X and S it will never be profitable, it has to hit high volume on Model 3 and Y ( Stand alone Auto companies have to produce few million cars to stay cashflow +tive and profitable.) It would therefore be interesting to see how companies like Lucid and others can survive making only cars which cost in excess of $100K+ , unless they are acquired by a larger Automaker.

 

[strider]

It's funny when companies move down market, rich people get "Hella mad".... tbh, i can't wait until the tesla brand is no longer about "luxury" and exclusivity. It should be about a good, safe car that has tremendous value while at the same time helping transiting away from fossil fuels.

So you want Tesla to become the Toyota of EVs? News flash, their margins are WAY lower than Teslas. Their stock has a P/E of 9. That's where Tesla's will be if they follow the same path.

Any Auto company to be profitable needs to mass produce cars. To set up a manufacturing line requires a lot of capital and if you don't produce car in high volumes, it will never be profitable. Therefore if Tesla males Model X and S it will never be profitable, it has to hit high volume on Model 3 and Y ( Stand alone Auto companies have to produce few million cars to stay cashflow +tive and profitable.) It would therefore be interesting to see how companies like Lucid and others can survive making only cars which cost in excess of $100K+ , unless they are acquired by a larger Automaker.

This is just absolutely and positively wrong. Literally every high end manufacturer would beg to differ. The margins on Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc are WAY WAY higher than Toyotas. You do realize that Porsche bought VW and not the other way around?

There is a reason that Tesla started at the top of the market and has moved down. They made/make a lot more money on the Roadster, S, and X than they do on 3/Y. The margins on those cars funded everything else. I can tell you that Tesla's descent into bad quality and terrible customer service started with the M3. They tried to scale up without having the processes or culture to do that. Tesla was operating like a Porsche and tried to become a Toyota overnight. It has become an unmitigated disaster compared to the pre-M3 Tesla.

 

[Rice&Curry]

So you want Tesla to become the Toyota of EVs? News flash, their margins are WAY lower than Teslas. Their stock has a P/E of 9. That's where Tesla's will be if they follow the same path.

This is just absolutely and positively wrong. Literally every high end manufacturer would beg to differ. The margins on Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc are WAY WAY higher than Toyotas. You do realize that Porsche bought VW and not the other way around?

There is a reason that Tesla started at the top of the market and has moved down. They made/make a lot more money on the Roadster, S, and X than they do on 3/Y. The margins on those cars funded everything else. I can tell you that Tesla's descent into bad quality and terrible customer service started with the M3. They tried to scale up without having the processes or culture to do that. Tesla was operating like a Porsche and tried to become a Toyota overnight. It has become an unmitigated disaster compared to the pre-M3 Tesla.

well you can talk to Auto manufacturing experts and get the feedback. At one time there were as many as 10+Auto companies in the US and then gradually it reduced to big three. Same reason- it is a volume game.

 

[eleison]

So you want Tesla to become the Toyota of EVs? News flash, their margins are WAY lower than Teslas. Their stock has a P/E of 9. That's where Tesla's will be if they follow the same path.

Elon has says he wants to build cars for the masses. That is why the next generation tesla roadster has been delayed for years now - the company is not focusing on it. This is also the reason, they are not focusing on the model s and x. Not my words, teslas own words.

Tesla wants to be Toyota.... AND ..Honda.... AND Ford.
And GM... AND kia, etc..etc... they want to dominate everyone... also, they want to be the battery leader of the world which includes building/selling the power wall, etc... when they are done with that, I'm sure the company will pivot into other fields related to electrifying the world. Tesla is agile and operates with a startup mindset.

Now look at the p/e ratio of the luxury auto dealers.. they are stagnant and cannot/will not pivot into other fields. That is why their p/e ratio is so low.

Tesla is not a traditional auto maker...chef twit is not a traditional ceo.

 

[Genie]

Elon has says he wants to build cars for the masses. That is why the next generation tesla roadster has been delayed for years now - the company is not focusing on it. This is also the reason, they are not focusing on the model s and x. Not my words, teslas own words.

Tesla wants to be Toyota.... AND ..Honda.... AND Ford.
And GM... AND kia, etc..etc... they want to dominate everyone... also, they want to be the battery leader of the world which includes building/selling the power wall, etc... when they are done with that, I'm sure the company will pivot into other fields related to electrifying the world. Tesla is agile and operates with a startup mindset.

Now look at the p/e ratio of the luxury auto dealers.. they are stagnant and cannot/will not pivot into other fields. That is why their p/e ratio is so low.

Tesla is not a traditional auto maker...chef twit is not a traditional ceo.

“Elon has said” is a shaky foundation

 

[Richbot]

So you want Tesla to become the Toyota of EVs? News flash, their margins are WAY lower than Teslas. Their stock has a P/E of 9. That's where Tesla's will be if they follow the same path.

This is just absolutely and positively wrong. Literally every high end manufacturer would beg to differ. The margins on Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc are WAY WAY higher than Toyotas. You do realize that Porsche bought VW and not the other way around?

There is a reason that Tesla started at the top of the market and has moved down. They made/make a lot more money on the Roadster, S, and X than they do on 3/Y. The margins on those cars funded everything else. I can tell you that Tesla's descent into bad quality and terrible customer service started with the M3. They tried to scale up without having the processes or culture to do that. Tesla was operating like a Porsche and tried to become a Toyota overnight. It has become an unmitigated disaster compared to the pre-M3 Tesla.

Those examples are profitable because they sink a ton of the development money in the parent corp. Porsche was inches from bankruptcy in my lifetime. The water cooled transition coupled with too much leverage almost killed the company. Now it has to mass produce hundreds of thousands of MAcans and Cayennes to be profitable, and those are only profitable thanks to platform sharing across VWAG. Their electric future is 100% dependent on VWAG and by extension, the Bundestag. Lambo...lol it was never profitable its whole life, skipped across bankruptcy all through the 80's and 90's, and Ferrari barely so, and only with Fiat and the mob/sultan of Brunei's help. The margins are in selling a $30,000 product for $70,000 (sound like anything Tesla sells?), not in selling a $90,000 product for $100,000. That's where GM and Ford and Toyota (and Porsche's crossover SUV's) really kick ass on margin. Because they have that base of mass-production they can build a high-end car from. A 5000-unit $250k car that has a 1 2 3 or sometimes 5 billion dollar development cycle isn't an example that translates to any thing relevant to this discussion anyway.

I also disagree about pre-Model 3 quality. I've driven a few dozen of those early cars by this point and...yeah not aging well, weren't impressive outside of the powertrain being a totally new thing back then either.

 

[3mp_kwh]

As an 2019 MX owner, I agree the interiors of the car does not look like a 100K car.

The harm of Musk's footprint is all over, but with back to the wall he can capitulate. LFP and going back to offering round steering wheels are two recent examples of admitting change is needed. IMO, Tesla interiors have parsed and attempted to define demand. This forum howled when the model three dash was first shown. "No HUD?", etc. If Tesla were a normal car company, it would have curated its lineup in more ways than just making the guts fascinating.

On its unique mission, people get confused. Very different to dump profit-maximizing and assume advancing to sustainable energy. It actually explains a lot, like lowering prices so long as cash looks good; sticking with fatter demand segments at the neglect of others; making a Semi when more net margin is in ~13 model Ys. Don't confuse Tesla's mission with BMW, or others who seek profit from environmental socialism.