HPWCs at public locations as a bridge to Super Chargers?

[Rifleman]

In the short term, one of the best things we can do is share out HPWC and 14-50 outlets on plugshare. This will very quickly create a de-facto network, and will enable all of us to travel longer distances until the super charger network is filled out. Even though I am yet to own a Tesla, I have a 14-50 that is listed on plug share, and have had a few Tesla owners stop by to pick up a few extra miles to ensure they reach their destination.

 

[Aphysician]

@ Rifleman

Amazing idea. Great job for sharing your charger. I had initially started a post to list HPWC/NEMA chargers, but didnt see much interest. This list will be mostly private stations. The information can easily be distributed through plugshare. @ twinklejet mentioned the same thing in the thread above.

List of Tesla Clubs and HPWC locations

 

[Larry Chanin]

If you have, how about a "couchsurfing" concept throughout the USA for Model S owners since most Model S owners have the HPWC at home - we could have a community where we could simply drop in on a fellow Model S owner's home and borrow their HPWC (paying for what you use of course) assuming someone lives "along the way" of your intended road trip/route where you will need a charge outside of the range of a supercharger. Of course a dedicated website/database has to be set up similar to Welcome to Couchsurfing! - Couchsurfing and this will definitely bring the Tesla community closer!

Plugshare.com is a mature application that does that. It works for people that are not concerned about strangers visiting them.

Here in Florida we have a Tesla club with about 170 members. Of that number about only 40 members are comfortable with sharing their charging source even with other participating club members. Our approach relieves concern about strangers somewhat because even though a host may not have met a visiting club member, he/she has that person's name and contact information in advance, so in a sense they are not complete strangers who have decided to show up at their door.

Regardless, I doubt this is what Evan has in mind.

Returning to Evan's idea, I am in general in favor of Tesla providing Roadster High Power Connectors (with a Model S adapter cable) at Supercharger locations, but make them a permanent part of the installation. I appreciate the fact that installing them in advance of the Supercharger installation may in certain cases introduce logistical issues. If they can do it great, if not, so be it. To do this Tesla would need dedicated parking for the HPC that does not get in the way of the Supercharger traffic.

My main reason for supporting the idea is to provide an alternative to Supercharging for Roadster owners and to assist in getting Model S owners with high states of charge to vacate the Supercharger positions as the charging rate tappers off. In the original design of the Superchargers a Model S with a state of charge at about 75% is charging no faster than an HPWC. Now with the new design drivers will be able to charge to higher SoC than 75% and still charge faster than an HPWC. We of course don't know that precise percentage, but in principal it still makes sense to have signage that says something to the effect, "Please vacant the Supercharger when you have "X" rated miles. You may continue charging at the Level 2 charger if necessary."

So in summary, these HPCs would provide some charging infrastructure in advance of Supercharger roll-out, and after they might help to avoid congestion at Supercharger positions.

Larry

 

[Aphysician]

Hi Larry,


I thought about your reply to my post while replying @ rifleman. I think having more NEMA and HPWC in plugshare will solve the problem to an extent. Having information about visiting member is essential, and a member should give out that information as a courtesy to the EVSE owner.


You bring an interesting perspective to the whole discussion. You propose an interesting idea how having HPWC at SC location can actually help SC traffic. Owners with high SoC can vacate the SCs and then continue at HPWC. These HPWC should also serve other owners without the SC hardware. If we think about it then, HPWC doesnt occupy much space, and having few parking spaces (which will be there anyway) with HPWC is not going to increase footprint of the station significantly. It would be interesting to see at what level SCs will be similar to HPWC with new charging design and how much time will it need.


As you pointed out, it seems HPWC will play a bigger role in increasing EV adoption. Benefits are (1) provide charging infrastructure before SCs (2) understand patterns of use at SC location (3) provide charging to Model S/Roadster without SC hardware (4) Cover areas where SC won't be deployed (5) Ease congestion at SC station by allowing owners with high SoC to transfer to HPWC. We now need to figure out how to get this to company. Are you attending TESLIVE?


Hari

 

[Larry Chanin]

As you pointed out, it seems HPWC will play a bigger role in increasing EV adoption. Benefits are (1) provide charging infrastructure before SCs (2) understand patterns of use at SC location (3) provide charging to Model S/Roadster without SC hardware (4) Cover areas where SC won't be deployed (5) Ease congestion at SC station by allowing owners with high SoC to transfer to HPWC. We now need to figure out how to get this to company. Are you attending TESLIVE?


Hari

Hari,

Just one clarification, the Model S HPWC is not compatible with Roadsters. A Roadster HPC, with an adapter cable for Model Ss could accommodate both. Obviously, Tesla would have to develop a means to secure the cable from theft.

The issue of a Model S owner spending a lot of time at a Supercharger connection has been reported in one posting, but we have no idea if it is currently a widespread problem. However, we can expect congestion to be a possible problem in the future. My suggestion is a very basic stop-gap approach. I think in the future Tesla is certainly capable of pursuing more sophisticated approaches that involve two way communications between the Supercharger and the Model S. For example, although Elon promised free charging he did not promise free parking. So a future approach might involve monitoring the time at the Supercharger position, or the SoC, or both and at a certain threshold start charging a hefty fee for parking. Perhaps like ChargePoint a text message could be sent to the owner. In this case when the threshold is reached a text could be sent requesting that the car be moved in 15 minutes to avoid a sizeable fee. Such an approach would require the user of the Supercharger network to provide a credit card number and a cell phone number.

I am attending TESLIVE.

Larry

 

[Mnlevin]

I surfed through all this thread and maybe overlooked something. HPWC REQUIRES that the car has twin chargers. So if not, then one will only be charging at the 240/40 rate which can be accomplish at a fraction of the cost with a standard plug. And those can probably be found on PLUGSHARE but again it will take hours to replenish the car. I don't think the HPWC is a viable option as most people probably are not ordering that option, I know I didnt

 

[Aphysician]

@ mnlevin

Yup, to get full advantage of HPWC one would require twin chargers (TC). We did not address that on the thread, and limiting discussions to the owners who have TC. I have placed a reservation recently, and was in the same place. After much deliberation I ordered TC, mainly as to get it retrofit it would cost 3500 $. Not knowing how HPWC will turn out in future, I went with it. If Tesla builds HPWC network then people would go for TC. Currently there are no benefits of ordering TCs.

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@ Larry

Thank you for the clarification. I wouldnt know the difference, as someone who havent seen a roadster in person. Tesla will need to think of way how to avoid hogging of SC stations. Leaving your car parked after charge is completed (or in our hypothetical situation, after achieving certain level of SoC, where charging by HPWC will be similar) is not acceptable. SC should communicate with the car, stop the charge, notify owner that charge is complete, should give a little window to move the car and then charge parking fee.

 

[gregincal]

assist in getting Model S owners with high states of charge to vacate the Supercharger positions as the charging rate tappers off. In the original design of the Superchargers a Model S with a state of charge at about 75% is charging no faster than an HPWC. Now with the new design drivers will be able to charge to higher SoC than 75% and still charge faster than an HPWC. We of course don't know that precise percentage, but in principal it still makes sense to have signage that says something to the effect, "Please vacant the Supercharger when you have "X" rated miles. You may continue charging at the Level 2 charger if necessary."

It seems that Tesla's solution to the problem will be to have 4 connectors per supercharger instead of two connectors, so as supercharging ramps down on one car it can increase on the others. This is a much better solution than asking Model S owners to move their cars. Unfortunately, I don't really expect Tesla to focus on the road trip needs of roadster owners (they've given no indication that they will).

 

[Larry Chanin]

It seems that Tesla's solution to the problem will be to have 4 connectors per supercharger instead of two connectors, so as supercharging ramps down on one car it can increase on the others. This is a much better solution than asking Model S owners to move their cars. Unfortunately, I don't really expect Tesla to focus on the road trip needs of roadster owners (they've given no indication that they will).

Greg,

Let's suppose we have the situation referenced earlier where a Model S driver at say a Supercharger location at a mall spends many hours at the connection. Sure the power may be routed to other positions, but the fact remains that one position is unavailable for use by other Model S owners who truly need a fast charge. In such situations, ideally there should be a means to induce selfish drivers to move their cars.

From listening to Elon's recent comments at the shareholders meeting it is true that Tesla doesn't consider Raodsters a vehicle designed for roadtrips. So I agree that they may not be motivated to go out of their way to accommodate Roadster owners.

Larry

 

[gregincal]

Greg,

Let's suppose we have the situation referenced earlier where a Model S driver at say a Supercharger location at a mall spends many hours at the connection. Sure the power may be routed to other positions, but the fact remains that one position is unavailable for use by other Model S owners who truly need a fast charge. In such situations, ideally there should be a means to induce selfish drivers to move their cars.

From listening to Elon's recent comments at the shareholders meeting it is true that Tesla doesn't consider Raodsters a vehicle designed for roadtrips. So I agree that they may not be motivated to go out of their way to accommodate Roadster owners.

Larry

Yes, they definitely don't want them hogging the space for long when they're completely done, but the 4 ports solves the problem of slow charging at the end, because power is always being balanced across 4 spaces.

 

[brianman]

Yes, they definitely don't want them hogging the space for long when they're completely done, but the 4 ports solves the problem of slow charging at the end, because power is always being balanced across 4 spaces.

Unless, of course, 4 people are "hogging" the spaces.

 

[Palpatine]

There is no point in installing only a HPWC at a future Supercharger location. Financially it is a waste of money to do that.
They would have to pull permits twice because the first would expire. They would also have to pay sub-contractors twice to do electrical work.
Tesla is probably not delayed in building a location because of waiting on Supercharger equipment to install.
The schedule is more likely just a logistical issue of having enough time to organize all of the permits, working with sub-contractors, etc.

In my opinion, it makes no sense for Tesla to build a location now with a HPWC, then come back a second time at a future date to install Supercharger equipment.
The HPWC is not really useful on a highway trip anyways. I think only 30% of Model S owners have the twin chargers and even the twin chargers would require a few hours to get any meaningful highway range added.

Tesla Motors does not want to have the image of Model S drivers having to spend 2-3 hours waiting as a "Supercharger" location.
Those types of news articles would be deadly to the brand.

It is better to just install the Superchargers as the solution for long distance highway trips.

Based on my experience with the Roadster, that is why I only opted for the single charger for a Nema 14-50. I am not going to even bother with buying a HPWC. It is a waste of money to have one of those at home. I never used my Roadster HPC at 70 amps. In fact, I typically just had it set at 24-32 amps.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Yes, they definitely don't want them hogging the space for long when they're completely done, but the 4 ports solves the problem of slow charging at the end, because power is always being balanced across 4 spaces.

Greg,

Balancing the load among any number of spaces doesn't solve the basic problem of a driver occupying a space unnecessarily when there is congestion at a Supercharger station. Even now cars line up and have to wait to gain access to a free space. Someone who really needs a fast charge could use that space that is selfishly being occupied and its no solace to him/her that the load to the other three spaces occupied by other drivers are balanced. :wink:

Larry

 

[gregincal]

Greg,

Balancing the load among any number of spaces doesn't solve the basic problem of a driver occupying a space unnecessarily when there is congestion at a Supercharger station. Even now cars line up and have to wait to gain access to a free space. Someone who really needs a fast charge could use that space that is selfishly being occupied and its no solace to him/her that the load to the other three spaces occupied by other drivers are balanced. :wink:

Larry

But slow charging at the end isn't "unnecessary". It's part of getting a full charge. Only one of the four cars plugged into a single charger is going to be getting a full speed charge at any given time anyway. I don't see how it's any different than providing two supercharger slots and two HPWC slots (except that it's better because the balancing happens automatically rather than forcing people to move their cars). If you have 4 cars as each cars gets close to the top and slows down, the next cars ramps up. By the time the fourth car is charging at full speed the first car is completely done and vacates to allow another car to park and "get in line" to receive the full speed charge.

 

[SeanTek]

Don't forget about the 30% federal tax credit (Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit, IRS Form 8911), which expires on December 31, 2013. For business/investment property, the limit is $30,000: plenty of headroom for a commercial HPWC installation.

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…
They would have to pull permits twice because the first would expire. They would also have to pay sub-contractors twice to do electrical work.
…
The HPWC is not really useful on a highway trip anyways. I think only 30% of Model S owners have the twin chargers and even the twin chargers would require a few hours to get any meaningful highway range added.

Tesla Motors does not want to have the image of Model S drivers having to spend 2-3 hours waiting as a "Supercharger" location.
Those types of news articles would be deadly to the brand.
…

I agree with all of these comments. These are not "Supercharger" locations. It's better to think of them as "quick (or dedicated) charging stations for Tesla owners". For a business owner such as a hotel operator, attracting the growing legion of Tesla owners means more business from deeper pockets, longer stays, and (arguably) efficient use of infrastructure. If an HPWC can charge a car in 3 hours instead of 6 hours, you can leave the key with a valet and have one HPWC service up to 6 or 8 cars in a single day. I think Tesla ought to consider licensing their logo for marketing purposes to these stations, to promote these locations to owners, but not more.

 

[Larry Chanin]

But slow charging at the end isn't "unnecessary". It's part of getting a full charge. Only one of the four cars plugged into a single charger is going to be getting a full speed charge at any given time anyway. I don't see how it's any different than providing two supercharger slots and two HPWC slots (except that it's better because the balancing happens automatically rather than forcing people to move their cars). If you have 4 cars as each cars gets close to the top and slows down, the next cars ramps up.By the time the fourth car is charging at full speed the first car is completely done and vacates to allow another car to park and "get in line" to receive the full speed charge.

Greg,

You and I are apparently discussing two different situations.

If you reread my previous remarks you'll see that I am talking about a situation where a Model S owner selfishly occupies a space for hours even though he/she is done charging and doesn't vacate the position. My point is at such time that particular situation becomes widespread another approach in addition to load balancing is going to be required.

Larry

 

[wraithnot]

If you have 4 cars as each cars gets close to the top and slows down, the next cars ramps up. By the time the fourth car is charging at full speed the first car is completely done and vacates to allow another car to park and "get in line" to receive the full speed charge.

They really need to add some sort of display, lights, or iPhone app interface to display the status of each supercharger port. If three of four ports connected to supercharger #1 are occupied by completely charged cars while only one port connected to supercharger #2 is occupied by a car that just rolled in on electron fumes and is drawing full power then you would get a much faster charge by taking the open spot on supercharger #1. But there is currently no way to tell this other than trial and error or talking with any only owners that are standing near their cars.

 

[gregincal]

Greg,

You and I are apparently discussing two different situations.

If you reread my previous remarks you'll see that I am talking about a situation where a Model S owner selfishly occupies a space for hours even though he/she is done charging and doesn't vacate the position. My point is at such time that particular situation becomes widespread another approach in addition to load balancing is going to be required.

Larry

The contention was that Tesla should have HPWCs for people to use instead of the Superchargers for the last bit of charge since it charges slowly. Installing HPWCs at supercharger sites is the topic of the thread. I don't see the sense of doing that. Getting people to move on when they are done charging seems like a discussion for another thread.

 

[Lloyd]

If I were given an HPWC, I would make it public.

 

[Larry Chanin]

The contention was that Tesla should have HPWCs for people to use instead of the Superchargers for the last bit of charge since it charges slowly. Installing HPWCs at supercharger sites is the topic of the thread. I don't see the sense of doing that. Getting people to move on when they are done charging seems like a discussion for another thread.

Greg,

I'm simply suggesting that having HPCs at Supercharger stations serves two purposes. If the logistics of early installation of HPCs in advance of Superchargers turns out to be feasible, it serves the purpose intended by the original poster. Later on when the Superchargers stations are installed, if the HPCs are left in place, it may also be helpful in getting people to move on and vacate a Supercharger position.

Larry