HPWC/breaker almost caught fire...thoughts?

[Zishan]

Gen 2 HPWC
2016.5 Tesla S P90DL
48 amp charging/60 amp breaker

Video and pic below


So I say HPWC/breaker, because I'm not sure what the problem was. My electrician came and looked at it and couldn't say definitively either. Likely a bad "breaker" so he replaced it(the breaker) and said I will need a new panel.

Since then, I have installed a smoke/carbon monoxide detector, just to be safe. A few times I could smell something burning, same smell as the time it almost caught fire, so I started charging at 30 amps....with a fire extinguisher handy. Side note, hanging out in the garage, I've gotten a lot of cleaning done. Charging at 30 seemed ok, but the breaker still got warm.

Now, a few weeks later, my car stopped charging. Turns out the breaker was getting hot and causing the HPWC to stop charging, but not tripping the 60 amp breaker. Also caused some adjacent breaks to get hot and trip.

So trying to determine my path forward. Replace breaker again? Or is the HPWC bad? If I let the breaker cool down, reset the breaker, and then reset the HPWC, it works but I'm not comfortable using it.

Thoughts?



Breaker for HPWC was installed at the bottom and you can see how it burnt upward.

 

[boaterva]

Makes no sense. Obvously there’s a high resistance area somewhere or you would not get heat (by definition). What’s the size of the wire on the run to the HPWC and how far is it? The breaker size itself and the loads are fine, of course, at 80% of max and you’ve even reduced that.

Only other cause could be the contacts between the breaker and the panel. It can’t be the HPWC as the heat is at the panel so the resistance (causing heat) is there. Either wire connections to the breaker or breaker to panel or breaker itself.

Edit: other thought is that panel does look like crap. How old is it and what’s the total rating (main breaker)?

Personally I would replace the whole thing, looking at that mess, unfortunately.

You’d think your electrician would know all this but we’ve seen some clueless ones. There’s nothing special about a HPWC once you treat it like a load of 30A/240VAC or whatever.

 

[SSedan]

I think there was an install issue with the breaker.

 

[JACMS3]

The wires at the breaker are tighten properly.
Loose will cause heat.
Or if you can use another slot on the load centre.
May be the breaker and loadcenter connection (clips) loose.

 

[SSedan]

Is it the original electrician diagnosing or a third party?

 

[MN-MS100D]

Please explain the video for me.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Based on the location of the heat build-up I'd put a small amount of money on the breaker either being faulty or the breaker wasn't properly installed in terms of landing the wires to the terminals or properly securing the breaker to the panel bars. If, for instance, a small bit of insulation was left on the wire as the terminal screw was tightened onto a wire that wasn't completely bare it would cause resistance and heat issues eventually. We've seen this a LOT around these EV forums where people are blaming outlets and other things when it comes down to one of the more fundamental pieces of being an electrician. If your electrician isn't 100% confident about what they're seeing or doing get another opinion. This isn't something you want some pocket electrician monkeying around with as you now know first hand that it have tremendously bad results if not done properly.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Please explain the video for me.

I saw a bit of smoke escaping the panel so my guess is this was the purpose of the video. Kind of hard to see but what I'd rather have had on that video is what the breaker itself looked like with the panel cover removed and how all of the connections related to said breaker looked as that would tell a more complete story.

 

[Snerruc]

Standard breakers and receptacles are not designed for 7-8 hours of use at full or near full amperage. I found this out the hard way. My new electrician installed an industrial breaker and 14-50. They cost more but are rated for continuous usage at full amperage. The receptacle is larger than the regular one but fits the box. It does require a different cover. Also, he was very careful to torque and manipulate every connection and then retorque to ensure the wires could not move after the fact.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Standard breakers and receptacles are not designed for 7-8 hours of use at full or near full amperage. I found this out the hard way. My new electrician installed an industrial breaker and 14-50. They cost more but are rated for continuous usage at full amperage. The receptacle is larger than the regular one but fits the box. It does require a different cover. Also, he was very careful to torque and manipulate every connection and then retorque to ensure the wires could not move after the fact.

Do you genuinely believe that a breaker or receptacle with a UL approved rating won't at least meet it's designed use as a starting point? The reality is that these items are tested beyond these minimums by Underwriter Laboratories for a specified degree of safety margin. If you think that a UL approved 50A breaker and/or 50A outlet can't sustain 80% of this (40A) and still garner a UL approval then you don't understand what goes into modern electrical application or UL testing & approval. More often than not when a receptacle "fails" it's operator error in terms if improper wire choice, improper connections or both. So many of these posts of bad equipment are operator/installer error but many in the Tesla community think that spending more always guarantees a better result. Even if you use a beefier receptacle you can cause a fire by improperly installing it. Sustained 80% draw just accelerates the failure.

 

[brkaus]

Was the breaker rated for that panel?

Do you have a picture zoomed out that shows the entire panel?

 

[murphyS90D]

Were copper ferrules crimped on the ends of the wires, breaker and HPWC ends? If not it is very easy to miss a couple of strands which results in the generation of heat. Do you have a picture of the breaker and wires before they were removed from the panel? If heat is being generated in the panel that means the voltage at the HPWC will be dropping. The HPWC monitors the voltage and if there is a significant drop in voltage it will shut down. Was the wire at least 6 gauge wire? How long is the run to the HPWC. If long it might need 4 gauge wire.

My HPWC is wired with 2 gauge wire and is 75 feet from the panel. Ferrules were used on all connections. I charge at up to 80 amps and have never had a problem. The breaker is a 100 amp breaker and gets slightly warm to the touch by the end of a charging session.

Was the breaker the proper brand for the panel? Has the panel been replaced?

 

[MN-MS100D]

I saw a bit of smoke escaping the panel so my guess is this was the purpose of the video. Kind of hard to see but what I'd rather have had on that video is what the breaker itself looked like with the panel cover removed and how all of the connections related to said breaker looked as that would tell a more complete story.

Umm. I'd rather like to have the OP explain why the picture and the video are two different panels. The smoke rising out of the panel is beginning to smell like BS.

 

[brkaus]

Umm. I'd rather like to have the OP explain why the picture and the video are two different panels. The smoke rising out of the panel is beginning to smell like BS.

I’m giving the benefit of doubt thinking the video is the top and the photo is the bottom.

it would be an odd way to load the breakers in the panel, but maybe... hoping for a full picture.

 

[animorph]

Given that the breaker was professionally replaced and the problem persists, I think the next step is to replace the panel. I'm surprised it's still actually functional after looking at that picture. No way I'd use something that looked like that. It was just not able to handle the stress of 48A.

 

[user212_nr]

My electrician came and looked at it and couldn't say definitively either. Likely a bad "breaker" so he replaced it(the breaker) and said I will need a new panel.

Yes, you need a new panel. Whether it was the breaker or the panel doesn't really matter too much at this point.

So trying to determine my path forward. Replace breaker again?

You can't replace your breaker, the whole panel is burned out. Its clear that this is your house where you live in and not a detached garage. You should not even think of it. You should have had it fixed the same day.

Since then, I have installed a smoke/carbon monoxide detector, just to be safe. A few times I could smell something burning, same smell as the time it almost caught fire, so I started charging at 30 amps....with a fire extinguisher handy.

This mistake almost cost you (or your family) your life. Its called "normalcy bias". You are presented with an emergency situation, but don't see the need to take drastic action. No amount of smoke or burning is acceptable except in the kitchen.

Or is the HPWC bad? If I let the breaker cool down, reset the breaker, and then reset the HPWC, it works but I'm not comfortable using it.

HPWC is probably OK, but you should have someone visually inspect it for damage. The wire that runs from your panel to the HPWC is probably not OK, and should be replaced.

 

[Zishan]

Umm. I'd rather like to have the OP explain why the picture and the video are two different panels. The smoke rising out of the panel is beginning to smell like BS.

BS? I'm not sure why someone would BS about this?

The video was made for my electrician. Initially our lights went out (a breaker tripped) and when I went to the garage it was smokey. I killed the main breaker, but the cover was too hot to remove. Again, the video was made to send to my electrician to show a sense of urgency.

The next morning once the panel was cooled down, I removed the face plate/cover thingy to find the burn breaker/bottom panel.

Video with cover on shows smoke coming from the panel.

Picture with cover off shows where the 60a breaker was installed and burnt up the bottom of the breaker panel.

I’m giving the benefit of doubt thinking the video is the top and the photo is the bottom.

it would be an odd way to load the breakers in the panel, but maybe... hoping for a full picture.

Thanks for the benefit of doubt. I will post a better pic this evening once work settles down.

Yes, you need a new panel. Whether it was the breaker or the panel doesn't really matter too much at this point.

You can't replace your breaker, the whole panel is burned out. Its clear that this is your house where you live in and not a detached garage. You should not even think of it. You should have had it fixed the same day.

This mistake almost cost you (or your family) your life. Its called "normalcy bias". You are presented with an emergency situation, but don't see the need to take drastic action. No amount of smoke or burning is acceptable except in the kitchen.

HPWC is probably OK, but you should have someone visually inspect it for damage. The wire that runs from your panel to the HPWC is probably not OK, and should be replaced.

Thanks for this, I'll get the panel replaced asap.



Other than that, thanks for all the info and advice. I was planning on buying the new Gen 3 HPWC (18 footer), but I'm glad there is hope for my Gen 2.

 

[Zishan]

Is it the original electrician diagnosing or a third party?

The HPWC was installed by a popular electrician in the Houston area, who is very familiar with these installs. He was both the one to install and rearrange the panel after the fire/almost fire.

Please explain the video for me.

Again, Video is with cover on. I made it to text my electrician. This happened in the evening and I wanted him to feel a sense of importance/urgency.

The picture was the next morning once cover was removed.

Thanks again all,
- Zishan

 

[user212_nr]

Also, you are probably covered for this damage under insurance. Technically you suffered a catastrophic electrical fire, even though your house did not burn down.

They will probably reimburse your repairs including the wire, and maybe even the HPWC. Just keep the evidence until you get your claim.

 

[Sparrow]

I almost never need full power from my HPWC. I always run my charging at 25amp so that everything stays relatively cool. I believe in the long run, I will get longer life out of my wiring and charging equipment. On those few days I really need to charge faster I move the amps up.