How would you prefer to pay for Supercharging?

[Garlan Garner]

GG is in favor of recurring monthly Supercharger fees. It's here. Everyone, bask in it.

LOL yes. as long as I get unlimited charging.

My only desire is "unlimited" charging. no pay per use.

 

[Fourdoor]

Why don't you understand the crux behind my message?

I'm not talking about paying for life vs. paying monthly. That's not the discussion. geesh.

I'm saying that paying per unit per time used vs. paying for unlimited are the 2 sides of the issue.

Either pay per time/usage for widgets.
Or get unlimited widgets for a price. I don't care how often you pay ( once or monthly ).

You don't pay car insurance by mile
You don't pay homeowners taxes based on how many hours spent in the house.
etc....its all unlimited usage - even if you have to pay for unlimited per month.

Get it?

Listing a bunch of things that are unlimited after paying a fee, or re-occurring charges is not an argument showing that it is the perfect way to do things. I can list all kinds of things that you purchase with limits... a car lease has mileage limits! How ghastly! Good thing Tesla doesn't do things like that on their leases! Oh.... wait.... what?

Also, my house tax is based on how much time I spend there. If it is not my primary residence it goes up by a huge amount.

From a tech standpoint...
Itunes:
Nook books:
Kindle books:

Virtually all "physical" items....
Gasoline: Pay per gallon, not a fee when you purchase a new Ford that gives you free fuel at "Ford" branded gas stations for life (with proprietary nozzles so nobody else can use them).

Anyway, I don't know how big Apples complaint department is, but they don't seem to be going broke from the "antiquated" way Itunes does things. I think Tesla is smart enough to do things similar to Itunes without screwing it up...

Keith

 

[stopcrazypp]

That's just not correct. I have unlimited text talk and data on all of my cell phones with AT&T. So I know that is incorrect.

We hare already been informed that unlimited SC will continue to be offered...so that's now a non-issue.

Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright

I was referring to this:
http://gizmodo.com/5553418/att-just...ess-data-and-screwed-everybody-in-the-process

Actually, browsing a bit, I see what you were referring to, this is a new plan called "unlimited". However there are major new restrictions vs the older unlimited plans that were killed:
"After 22GB of usage, reduced speeds may apply. Tethering and Mobile Hotspot use prohibited (except for Connected Car)."
Get the AT&T Unlimited Data plan when you have AT&T wireless and DIRECTV

This basically follows the model some have suggested, which is to throttle or ban local use on the supercharger network (which I'm sure you would not support).

Also, I should point out, that Tesla promised "free long distance for life" but not necessarily unlimited. There is a difference. To use the mobile analogy, see T-mobile's limited "free data for life" plan:
T-Mobile Reiterates Free Data for Life Details | T-Mobile Newsroom

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes.

I guess it really does mirror the SC debate, since my immediate reaction to this comment was "by definition you can't abuse something that's unlimited. When you cross the line into abuse, that line is called... a limit. Contradiction, Q.E.D."

(Anyway, AT&T was actually reasonably classy about how they got rid of unlimited. They just stopped offering it to new accounts and provided incentives to existing ones to move off, AFAIK they didn't renege.)

Abuse were those that tethered their phones and then downloaded multiple TBs worth of torrents every month.

AT&T actually was not that nice, they started throttling data for those on the older unlimited plans.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Listing a bunch of things that are unlimited after paying a fee, or re-occurring charges is not an argument showing that it is the perfect way to do things. I can list all kinds of things that you purchase with limits... a car lease has mileage limits! How ghastly! Good thing Tesla doesn't do things like that on their leases! Oh.... wait.... what?

Also, my house tax is based on how much time I spend there. If it is not my primary residence it goes up by a huge amount.

From a tech standpoint...
Itunes:
Nook books:
Kindle books:

Virtually all "physical" items....
Gasoline: Pay per gallon, not a fee when you purchase a new Ford that gives you free fuel at "Ford" branded gas stations for life (with proprietary nozzles so nobody else can use them).

Anyway, I don't know how big Apples complaint department is, but they don't seem to be going broke from the "antiquated" way Itunes does things. I think Tesla is smart enough to do things similar to Itunes without screwing it up...

Keith

My only point is this. Companies are offering more unlimited products than every before. Why? For the consumer? Absolutely not. Because - Its more profitable.
Period.
I'm not just listing stuff. I'm making a point that companies are moving in that direction and that the reason is that it's profitable. Is everything unlimited - no. However there are a record number of unlimited widgets out there.

Its a non arguable truth.

 

[Fourdoor]

That's just not correct. I have unlimited text talk and data on all of my cell phones with AT&T. So I know that is incorrect.

We hare already been informed that unlimited SC will continue to be offered...so that's now a non-issue.

Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright

Ummm, you realize that article is pure speculation? Could have been written by anyone from this thread, and as condescendingly as it was worded I suspect it may have been!

You linked to this page multiple times as if it were the words of Prophet Elon given from on high rather than being just another internet opinion...

Keith

 

[Garlan Garner]

Ummm, you realize that article is pure speculation? Could have been written by anyone from this thread, and as condescendingly as it was worded I suspect it may have been!

You linked to this page multiple times as if it were the words of Prophet Elon given from on high rather than being just another internet opinion...

Keith

LOL. We'll see.

Less than 18 months to go.

 

[Red Sage]

So just as devil's advocate here.. why wouldn't they just swallow the fraud charges until they got to the point where it was worth hiring an employee? Isn't that what the term "business case" means?

Once again, I reminded of the saying, "This is why we can't have nice things."

Those who participate in fraudulent activity are relentless. They absolutely will not stop. EVER. Until they go to jail. Before that point, once they find out something works, they'll tell all their sleazy friends. Each of those guys will spread the word to two or more unsavory characters. And they will all descend upon your firm like locusts to get anything and everything from you as is possible.

Combating that sort of activity is costly.

 

[Red Sage]

...if Tesla would implement a fee for access to the Superchargers at the time of purchase and then another fee for its use, I think some people may think twice about going to their local supercharger.

...

If a small fee would deter even a small portion of the locals who in my opinion, are taking advantage, I think it would help.

~*SIGH*~

A 'small fee' per use would deter legitimate needs to charge long before it did so to so-called 'abusers'. They do what they do because that is their mission in life. They live to make the lives of others miserable, any way they can. Anywhere they can.

On Xbox LIVE, years ago, when it was first allowed to play online in team-on-team matches using headsets to communicate with team members... Guys on the opposing team would do really annoying things, like have some guy running around yelling incoherently, or spouting racial epithets, or sexual slurs, or playing really loud music that sucked, just ruining the whole thing for everyone else. It was... a strategy. When it worked, everyone on the opposing team would get sick of listening to the bum and would mute the sound. Problem was, originally, that would mute EVERYONE, not just the opposing team, but also your own teammates. So you couldn't effectively communicate with each other on your own team. Eventually the guys at Microsoft fixed it, so you could mute just one guy.

This type of deterrent would have a terrible effect. Please. Don't worry about it. Everything will be fine. Without pay-per-use.

 

[Red Sage]

Contrary to my above comments, I'd love to keep my for life of my MX free supercharging, but I still fear the demand for said superchargers will surpass the supply. Something needs to be done to combat this.

~*SIGH*~

So, you seem to want a solution to a nonexistent problem before it appears. Don't worry about it. The solution already exists. Buy a Tesla Motors product. Use Superchargers as often as you like. Wherever you like. Watch in joy and excitement as Tesla Motors continues to expand the Supercharger network to cover both Distance and Density. Sorted.

Elsewise, when using a Supercharger, charge only as much as you need to reach your next stop, plus a buffer of 30% or 50 miles, whichever you prefer. Then, move your car from the Supercharger stall immediately to do your part toward preventing crowding. Get used to the actual range of your car so that you always arrive at a Supercharger with 10% to 20% State of Charge remaining. If you must charge at a Supercharger that is local to you, due to an emergency of some sort, please be courteous of those who may be traveling long distances so as not to inconvenience them.

 

[Red Sage]

It's actually simpler than waiting for laws/regulations to change (which will take a while, the charge networks have been pushing for changes for years): simply bill by minute (or even session, although session is less ideal).

This amounts to 'simply' overbilling those who arrive at a Supercharger with greater than 30% State of Charge, or those who must use Superchargers during extremely cold weather, or those who must use paired Superchargers on busy days.

 

[Red Sage]

Would charging by mile added to the battery possibly avoid the problem of charge per kWh since the cost is averaged throughout the nation? Might be worth looking into.

The 'per mile added' metric varies due to weather conditions, terrain, and driving style. So no, it would not be appropriate as a measure of billing either. Someone who likes to 'Drive It Like You Stole It' will probably get a bit better cost efficiency than someone who chose to 'Drive It Like a Hippie Tree Hugger'.

 

[Red Sage]

I think it's a privilege that you will and should be able to keep. You basically financed the SC upfront and you're entitled to the benefits. The question is how Tesla deals with the masses of M3 owners crowding the stations. And if pay-per-use is eventually implemented, for that reason I suggested that they may have to create exclusive use SC slots for the "unlimited" SC users that pay-per-use customers can't use.

No Segregation. No premium, reserved charging spaces. A Tesla is a Tesla, is a Tesla.

 

[Red Sage]

I am not sure Tesla needs to recoup the cost of the super charging stations that are already being paid for by other means. What Tesla needs to target is overuse of the superstations that will lead to unrealistic waiting times. If Tesla's per use cost is set by their average national cost for electricity, owners of the Model 3 that do not pay for the lifetime fee would likely charge at home instead of using the super charging stations. The per use cost that only pays for Tesla's electricity cost will silence naysayers that will use a higher fee to attack Tesla.

Meh. Naysayers will attack Tesla Motors no matter what. It's what they do. They can't help it. To do otherwise would be logical or something. That is not allowed among the Naysayer contingent.

The only mention on the Tesla Motors website that gives some vague clue as to what 'normal' use would be is the phrase, "...10% charging on Tesla's Supercharger network enabling free long distance travel..." That could be interpreted different ways, though.

Does it literally mean that Tesla Motors expects you to use a Supercharger no more than 10% of the times you plug in? So, assuming you plug in every night, 365 times a year, that would amount to 90% of your charging... Out of a full 406 times charging per year... And that you could use a Supercharger about 41 times per year.

Or, does it mean that only 10% of the miles you drive per year would be 'fueled' by a Supercharger? So, if you drove 15,000 miles per year in total... You would be able to add up to 1,500 miles worth of Supercharger 'juice' to your car per year... before being determined an 'abuser'.

Here the thing is, though... The EPA uses the parameter "Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles..." to form its calculations of efficiency and cost of driving. If one considers that the 45% highway driving equates to 'long distance' driving... Then someone who drives 15,000 miles per year could use Superchargers to cover 6,750 miles of it without issue, each year.

So, there is a pretty big gap between those so-called 'average' drivers, and someone like me, who really loves to drive. I already know that I can drive over 35,000 miles per year... And I suspect I might do as many as 50,000 miles per year with Supercharger access... I really believe I'd easily do more than 3,500-to-5,000 miles on Superchargers per year. I might not do quite as much as 15,750-to-22,500 miles using them, though. A bunch would be at home, at residences of Friends and Family, or using Destination Chargers instead.

But would any of this make me an 'abuser'...?

 

[Fred Thompson]

Meh. Naysayers will attack Tesla Motors no matter what. It's what they do. They can't help it. To do otherwise would be logical or something. That is not allowed among the Naysayer contingent.

The only mention on the Tesla Motors website that gives some vague clue as to what 'normal' use would be is the phrase, "...10% charging on Tesla's Supercharger network enabling free long distance travel..." That could be interpreted different ways, though.

Does it literally mean that Tesla Motors expects you to use a Supercharger no more than 10% of the times you plug in? So, assuming you plug in every night, 365 times a year, that would amount to 90% of your charging... Out of a full 406 times charging per year... And that you could use a Supercharger about 41 times per year.

Or, does it mean that only 10% of the miles you drive per year would be 'fueled' by a Supercharger? So, if you drove 15,000 miles per year in total... You would be able to add up to 1,500 miles worth of Supercharger 'juice' to your car per year... before being determined an 'abuser'.

Here the thing is, though... The EPA uses the parameter "Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles..." to form its calculations of efficiency and cost of driving. If one considers that the 45% highway driving equates to 'long distance' driving... Then someone who drives 15,000 miles per year could use Superchargers to cover 6,750 miles of it without issue, each year.

So, there is a pretty big gap between those so-called 'average' drivers, and someone like me, who really loves to drive. I already know that I can drive over 35,000 miles per year... And I suspect I might do as many as 50,000 miles per year with Supercharger access... I really believe I'd easily do more than 3,500-to-5,000 miles on Superchargers per year. I might not do quite as much as 15,750-to-22,500 miles using them, though. A bunch would be at home, at residences of Friends and Family, or using Destination Chargers instead.

But would any of this make me an 'abuser'...?

It will be interesting to see what Tesla finally comes up with for supercharging the M3 for those that don't want to pay for the unlimited use.

 

[Red Sage]

I have walked past this particular EVSE area about 8 times in the past three years. Every time there is a Chevy Volt parked there for the entire day. Clearly this driver is employed at one of the stores in this shopping area, and uses the location to charge and park the entire day.

I think this might be a situation that some of us anticipate could materialize with the Model 3. People who work proximate to the SC will grab a charge and use the space as a parking spot until they feel like returning to their car on break or worse, at the end of their shift.

One can only hope that Tesla Motors' Delivery Specialists are able to drive home the point that a Supercharger location does not equate to being a collection of reserved parking spaces for 'Tesla Only'. They exist to charge cars. The cars should be moved immediately upon completion of a charge, just enough to reach your next destination or Supercharger on your route. Most people should only plug in when the car is below a 30% State of Charge. If they begin practicing now, while Model S and Model X are the available products, they should have it down by the time the Model ☰ arrives.

 

[Red Sage]

Obviously you don't live in Chicago. That's grounds for getting shot here.

Wait... Hunh? What?!? And here I thought that simply breathing was grounds for being shot in Chicago...

~*DUCKS*~

 

[Red Sage]

It will be interesting to see what Tesla finally comes up with for supercharging the M3 for those that don't want to pay for the unlimited use.

I can only go with my personal hopes... That there will be limited Supercharger access (included in the base Model ☰), and unlimited Supercharger access (as a paid option, or with higher capacity battery packs). That would be fair, I think.

• Those who could live with the limited Supercharger network have no great out-of-pocket expense.
• Those who only want the base version of the car and don't need more range than it offers can opt-in to full Supercharger access without upgrading to a higher capacity battery pack.
• Those who want maximum range will get full Supercharger access by default.

I like that. This way there is no pay-per-use, no credit cards, no subscription plan. Simple. Easy. Sorted.

 

[EVNow]

Would charging by mile added to the battery possibly avoid the problem of charge per kWh since the cost is averaged throughout the nation? Might be worth looking into.

Yes. Using ideal miles charged would be a good work around.

 

[Red Sage]

If I were Tesla, I would defend against Supercharger billing disputes the same way as defending against autopilot/summon incidents/complaints: with detailed logs. Log the time the car was parked at a supercharger, the time the driver opened the charging door, when the supercharger plug was inserted, removed, etc, etc.

These types of logs are already gathered by your car, accessible by the Tesla Motors Mothership anytime. But the Big Brother spycams and whatnot probably are not. Different States have varying laws about filming/recording activity in private/public places. Yet another level of regulation that should be avoided instead of embraced in order to avoid potential litigation.