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roblab
Active Member
If they can pay for six months of putting fuel into their diesel pickup or gas in their car, they can afford the 2000 for supercharging. Unfortunately, when they see they have an extra $300 at the end of the month, they immediately start wondering if they need to move up to the new 72" flat screen. Some people can't afford Tesla's type of thinking.
Ah, but Tesla tosses in a Jplug adapter for just those people. They can charge at Blink or Charge Point with their card access, charge at home for the rest, and never worry about supercharging. Since they are spending all their extra time playing World of Warcraft, they won't need cross country charging anyway. Or they can just keep the BMW and use gas until there aren't any more stations. At least that's what my son does.
Except BMW offers both packages and individual options. Their services like convenience plan are subscription based.
I'd rather not pay up front or subscription fees for optional services.
Pay per actual use works best for me. Tesla could also figure out how to charge extra for time spent in stall w/o charging active. And to discourage abuse by locals, Tesla could verify a trip plan. They could have a book-ahead reservation system for certain stalls and spill over to FCFS queuing stalls.
I was going to call you out for building a very detailed straw man, but that cleared it up. Sorry to hear it, I'm sure that's a struggle. My kids are young and my worries are different, but there will be a day I'm going to be thinking about similar things.
I'd rather pay up front and never be bothered with it again.
callmesam
Member
Let me share an anecdote and then why it's important to this discussion:
I've given hundreds of friends and family test rides in my Model S. Everyone loves the car but, without fail, asks how they could travel long distances. As many as possible, I take to a "local" Supercharger. There are 4 within 20 miles of my house, including 1 less than 4 miles.
_____________
"How much is it?"
Free for the life of the car.
"What . . .?"
It's included in the price of the car, although I paid an "access" fee.
"Holy #$%*#&#"
______________
Now Tesla has spent $200M in building the Supercharger Network, but that has been money well spent. The reason customers love Tesla and are basically unpaid employees is that TESLA IS DOING IT DIFFERENTLY.
Transitioning the world to sustainable transport requires doing things differently. Like FREE (of additional charges) FOR LIFE.
People will "put up with" pay per use. People are used to "pay per use". People may even think they want "pay per use".
But FREE FOR LIFE is better. It's better marketing. Better user experience. Better positive interaction with Tesla instead of getting "nickel and dimed" for everything.
Tesla will be giving up an incredible competitive advantage by becoming more like Blink and Chargepoint.
I've given hundreds of friends and family test rides in my Model S. Everyone loves the car but, without fail, asks how they could travel long distances. As many as possible, I take to a "local" Supercharger. There are 4 within 20 miles of my house, including 1 less than 4 miles.
_____________
"How much is it?"
Free for the life of the car.
"What . . .?"
It's included in the price of the car, although I paid an "access" fee.
"Holy #$%*#&#"
______________
Now Tesla has spent $200M in building the Supercharger Network, but that has been money well spent. The reason customers love Tesla and are basically unpaid employees is that TESLA IS DOING IT DIFFERENTLY.
Transitioning the world to sustainable transport requires doing things differently. Like FREE (of additional charges) FOR LIFE.
People will "put up with" pay per use. People are used to "pay per use". People may even think they want "pay per use".
But FREE FOR LIFE is better. It's better marketing. Better user experience. Better positive interaction with Tesla instead of getting "nickel and dimed" for everything.
Tesla will be giving up an incredible competitive advantage by becoming more like Blink and Chargepoint.
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I'd rather not be bothered by it either, although I don't see how a few long-distance trips per year on average would constitute a bother? Pay up front would have more value if it somehow provided a means to ensure a charger would be available as needed so as not to ruin travel plans. I don't see how up front can do that. However, I try to look at the practical implications of this scarce resource in the current system. It's obvious that the expansion plans are not on parity with production. I recognize that under the current system you'd pay per use or be "bothered by it", in a hidden way, as a consequence of further and of course much increased abuse. How does one best mitigate abuse? Social shaming? Pay for stall time? Coordinate reservation with pre-trip planning?
Snow Drift
[Off-Road Assist] Activated
SC is not free for anyone. S and X owners pay for the right in the cost of the car. It's just hidden.
If they don't bundle SC into another package, say D, I'd rather pay as I go. Just charge me like iTunes. The car knows when I plug into a SC. You don't need a fob or card. I'll probably only use a SC on long road trips to New Hampshire, which won't add up to $2,000 in 3 years.
If they don't bundle SC into another package, say D, I'd rather pay as I go. Just charge me like iTunes. The car knows when I plug into a SC. You don't need a fob or card. I'll probably only use a SC on long road trips to New Hampshire, which won't add up to $2,000 in 3 years.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
Except there is no significant "abuse" today by garaged locals (the non-garaged are welcome to use SCs unless and until they have home/work options), other than ICEing and in particular ICEing by our own.
In the US, 97% of the SCs are 100% fine and the other 3% are fine the majority of the time as well. Tesla has committed for 2 years now to density as well as to distance.
More about the subject here (see page 3, my post that starts with "Some random thoughts"): Inconsiderate supercharger stall hogs | Page 3 | Tesla Motors
The OP has to do with payment preference. I prefer that transaction processing stay far away from the SCs. The network works now, and it will work just fine in the future with one-time activation. No pay per use necessary. And if they introduce subscriptions, I hope that they are at least quarterly and that they are at least $500 per quarter.
I've never heard of this. I hope this garaged-vs-non-garaged policy didn't originate from Tesla.
It's been pretty common for some time. Tesla has even put in SCs in areas that have almost no access to home charging just so folks can charge their cars. The polite thing to do is to us SCs on trips or for unexpected situations unless you have no access to home charging.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
Of course it did. And it was a significant determinant in finalizing my order. Frankly, I was as surprised as anybody, and I gave zero credence to the "and we're building more SCs in areas of density because people don't always have garages" part. Within 6 weeks there were 2 more SCs in LA County and they're not done yet. You also may not be aware that many SvCs will get SCs and that many of those will be available after hours.
That's unnecessary FUD and is not borne out by a deeper thought process. "15x more" is irrelevant. It's not about exclusion or "hey, he's using it and I'm not". Further, many Model 3 owners will opt for no SC enablement upon purchase.
There's no problem at 97% of SCs. This is a problem that exists largely in the minds of a) non-owners, and b) non-SC users. Pretty sad, really.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
Initially, I would have agreed with you. In fact, I met a garaged lady early on at SJC who thought she was being clever by using, at the time, the most congested SC in the country to save $0.26/kWh while her rate plan took a month to switch over because she was late to the party. After some gentle conversation and showing her how to open her trunk and frunk with the cute little car thingy or with the touchscreen (evidently she chose no orientation when the car was delivered), she realized that the value of her time far exceeded the added cost for the next 3 weeks of charging in her nice safe air-conditioned (?! who air-conditions their garage) garage.
Those apartment-dwellers that choose to afford a $40K car will find it to their advantage to lobby for on-site chargers, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Tesla embark upon a program similar to DirecTV's (now AT&T) MDU (multiple dwelling unit) effort to make it more appealing for multi-family properties in general. Municipalities are also getting into the act. Remember how wifi was expensive and limited at first? I'm in Hilton Head at the moment and saw a sign that the city provides free wifi hotspots all over the place. Go figure. The town of Hermosa Beach offers free parking to alt-fuel/EV cars at any downtown meter, and a few plus a parking garage have chargers. These are great differentiators. I live adjacent Hermosa Beach and when it's lunchtime and parking is scarce and pricey in the Beach Cities, guess where I go? Easy peasy. We're just at the early end of the curve is all. Charging is and will become more... ubiquitous.
In the end, the Model 3 may end up with a different charging model (opt-out, subscription). But for now and probably for the next 5 years, all will be well.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Let's see what happens first before reaching that conclusion. We'll be able to discuss a lot of the points raised here in more concrete terms when we know what Tesla plans for Model 3.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
One potential way of increasing charging density and lowering per-stall infrastructure costs at larger Supercharger locations would be to have 2-3x the number of stalls with cables and plugs but keep the actual DC charging hardware the same. That way more cars could arrive, plug in and immediately begin charging on AC using the car's built in charger. When DC charging hardware becomes available, a central controller can end the car's AC charging session and then re-handshake with the car to begin a DC charging session. Once the car gets to 80% (or whatever) the central controller can then end the DC charging session and then re-handshake to begin a possible AC charging session if the car has been set to charge above 80%.
In this way, the expensive DC charging hardware resources can be shared in s more cost-effective way across more cars. Drivers can immediately park and plug without waiting in a queue and can be AC charging while they wait for DC. Drivers whose DC charge has ended won't be immediately blocking other cars from getting a DC charge and those seeking a high charge level can do so without hogging "the" DC charger plug.
Of course, all of this is predicated on the availability of extra parking stalls and cables with plugs at an economically advantageous price. I'm not sure if the math works out in the real world.
In this way, the expensive DC charging hardware resources can be shared in s more cost-effective way across more cars. Drivers can immediately park and plug without waiting in a queue and can be AC charging while they wait for DC. Drivers whose DC charge has ended won't be immediately blocking other cars from getting a DC charge and those seeking a high charge level can do so without hogging "the" DC charger plug.
Of course, all of this is predicated on the availability of extra parking stalls and cables with plugs at an economically advantageous price. I'm not sure if the math works out in the real world.
How much slower charging to 95-100% it would be this way? Like I've stated before, there are many cases where it is legitimate and necessary to charge to that SoC.
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