how can we encourage tesla to give better audible alert of AP status: full, distance keeping, or off

[zoomer0056]

I've been bitten by the system before, thinking AP was engaged when it was not. This usually happens after I've taken over control by using the wheel and not deactivating AP with the stalk. The fact that there are two ways out of AP which leaves the car in different states of autonomy is kind of confusing. Disabling AP by grabbing the wheel should also disable TACC, just as it does when you disable it with the stalk.

Easy to see if basic AP is engaged by lifting up off the accelerator. If the car slows down, then basic AP is not engaged. My point from my previous post is proven again. People incorrectly use the word Autopilot when they mean to say Autosteer. If Autosteer is active, so is TACC. TACC can be active while Autosteer is not. "I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on" is a nonsensical statement. Basic Autopilot consists of two features: TACC and Autosteer.

Way too many people pushing when the sign clearly says pull.

 

[OxBrew]

Tesla set us up to fail to fully understand all the modes, by making modes and lumping them under Autopilot.

One, autopilot is a dumb name.

Two, don't lump them together. Call one Lane Keeping, the other TACC, and market them as two totally separate things.

All the confusion is 100% on Tesla, not the end users.

Everyone saying the user needs to learn the difference is not wrong, but missing the point. There are better ways to design the communication of what the system is.

Otherwise, you have confused users, and you're blaming them. See Steve Jobs, "you're holding it wrong."

This is on Tesla, full stop.

 

[zoomer0056]

Tesla set us up to fail to fully understand all the modes, by making modes and lumping them under Autopilot.

One, autopilot is a dumb name.

Two, don't lump them together. Call one Lane Keeping, the other TACC, and market them as two totally separate things.

All the confusion is 100% on Tesla, not the end users.

Everyone saying the user needs to learn the difference is not wrong, but missing the point. There are better ways to design the communication of what the system is.

Otherwise, you have confused users, and you're blaming them. See Steve Jobs, "you're holding it wrong."

This is on Tesla, full stop.

I don't think its any more complicated than basic reading comprehension. But I think its normal to just wing it and not read the manual or the couple words on the Autopilot screen.

 

[gsmith123]

Like other people have mentioned, the most confusing failure mode is ending up with TACC engaged after a steering while disengagement. Or attempting to engage Autosteer via stalk but only engaging TACC.

I've done both of these (very rarely - I've driven probably 20k miles on AP).

Seems like understanding when TACC is engaged is the trickiest thing from a human factors perspective.

The recent change to allow single pull Autosteer engagement should fix half of this. For the steering wheel disengagement mode I'd still like a better visual indication.

 

[OxBrew]

I don't think its any more complicated than basic reading comprehension. But I think its normal to just wing it and not read the manual or the couple words on the Autopilot screen.

As an engineer, you have to exhaustively study the competency of your end users and design systems that work without fail in the harsh reality of the lowest competence user's ability to learn the system. Not the average user, the absolute lowest competence user still has to be safe.

If you sell a system to someone who is pretty dumb to start with, and then distracted by their kids, your system still has to be safe for them. Failures have to fail in a safe and expected way.

Any confusion is on Tesla.

You can never say it's a matter of the users reading comprehension, woops, they misunderstood our confusing system and now they're dead. That might work in a legal sense to cover some of the liability, but as an engineer, you just don't ever want to kill someone if you could have prevented it, regardless of who ends up being actually liable.

Tesla could make AP so clear that a child would understand it with no training. That they don't is really telling.

 

[BBTX]

Just chiming in that I also think the primary issue here is steering wheel "disengagement" dropping back to TACC-only. That is super confusing and dangerous. The right answer, design-wise, is that all disengagements, by any method, should cancel all of TACC/Autosteer/Autopilot/FSDb. The existing behavior of disengaging into a half-engaged state (just TACC), that I otherwise never use on its own, is crazy.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Just chiming in that I also think the primary issue here is steering wheel "disengagement" dropping back to TACC-only. That is super confusing and dangerous. The right answer, design-wise, is that all disengagements, by any method, should cancel all of TACC/Autosteer/Autopilot/FSDb. The existing behavior of disengaging into a half-engaged state (just TACC), that I otherwise never use on its own, is crazy.

That's already an option on the S/X and it's coming to the 3/Y with single pull AP. It basically eliminates TACC, which I never use.

 

[zoomer0056]

That's already an option on the S/X and it's coming to the 3/Y with single pull AP. It basically eliminates TACC, which I never use.

Yup, if NotATeslaApp is correct, 2023.38.8 (for legacy 3 and Y only) will allow configuration to completely bypass TACC.

 

[beatle]

Easy to see if basic AP is engaged by lifting up off the accelerator. If the car slows down, then basic AP is not engaged. My point from my previous post is proven again. People incorrectly use the word Autopilot when they mean to say Autosteer. If Autosteer is active, so is TACC. TACC can be active while Autosteer is not. "I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on" is a nonsensical statement. Basic Autopilot consists of two features: TACC and Autosteer.

Way too many people pushing when the sign clearly says pull.View attachment 991159

I'm aware of what the terms mean, but you just described a test for whether TACC is enabled as a test for AP. You also need to jiggle the wheel to see if AP is engaged since AP includes steering as well as cruise. Lifting the accelerator only tells you whether cruise is on. "I thought AP was on but only TACC was on" makes perfect sense to me. You seem to be arguing with yourself.

Grabbing the wheel to regain control produces a different result than using the stalk. The fact that taking control with the wheel is often not leisurely, and instead is done out of a response to AP error just amplifies the problem as the driver is react mode. I still maintain that grabbing the wheel should put you fully back in control and disable all ADAS. This has never been a problem of being able to understand the icons on the dash or what the terms mean.

 

[zoomer0056]

You also need to jiggle the wheel to see if AP is engaged since AP includes steering as well as cruise.

I got ya. Still bothering me that people say AP instead of Autosteer .

To make myself happy I will edit your sentence like this:

You also need to jiggle the wheel to see if Autosteer is engaged since AP includes Autosteer as well as TACC.

 

[marcmerlin]

As an engineer, you have to exhaustively study the competency of your end users and design systems that work without fail in the harsh reality of the lowest competence user's ability to learn the system. Not the average user, the absolute lowest competence user still has to be safe.

If you sell a system to someone who is pretty dumb to start with, and then distracted by their kids, your system still has to be safe for them. Failures have to fail in a safe and expected way.

Any confusion is on Tesla.

You can never say it's a matter of the users reading comprehension, woops, they misunderstood our confusing system and now they're dead. That might work in a legal sense to cover some of the liability, but as an engineer, you just don't ever want to kill someone if you could have prevented it, regardless of who ends up being actually liable.

Tesla could make AP so clear that a child would understand it with no training. That they don't is really telling.

Yeah, this, seriously. FFS, I'm an airplane pilot, I'm an engineer, I'm really not a moron, I understand all states and their transitions, and yet at times I don't really know what mode I'm in anymore or get confused by realizing I'm not in the mode I thought I was in. It's rare, but each time is one too many.
and yes, sometimes it's because I'm tired, sometimes I'm distracted, I'm a human, I'm not 100% at all times, and neither are most other people, whether they admit it, or not.

 

[marcmerlin]

That's how it's supposed to work. Very easy, if you've configured it that way, to engage TACC without engaging Autosteer. You could also configure it so that one click will engage both at the same time. So, you can configure thumb wheel Autopilot activation on a 2022 MSLR for one click or two clicks. Note: Autopilot is a group of features. Two of those features are TACC and Autosteer.

And you just explained why it's even more confusing. It's not quite like having a config option on whether the steering wheel turns the car right when you turn it left, but come on, for crucial controls like this, they need to really work the same every time without thinking.
There are very old planes where the wheel brakes are actually a handle you pull, other ones, a handle you pull was the flaps. A few other planes back in the day swapped the order of the prop pitch and engine leaning controls. This was a terrible mistake fixed about 40 years ago now, if not 50, and hardly any pilot wants to fly those few leftover planes with the controls that do different things. Muscle memory is a thing, it has to work the same way every time and in every vehicle.

 

[OxBrew]

There are very old planes where the wheel brakes are actually a handle you pull, other ones, a handle you pull was the flaps. A few other planes back in the day swapped the order of the prop pitch and engine leaning controls. This was a terrible mistake fixed about 40 years ago now, if not 50, and hardly any pilot wants to fly those few leftover planes with the controls that do different things. Muscle memory is a thing, it has to work the same way every time and in every vehicle.

We studied that in design school. In the 90's, car design almost coalesced around the same things, did for a lot of it (turn signals and pedals were there already, almost all headlights work the same way now), but left wipers and cruise control to flail in the wind, it can be anything.

I have an old Subaru with the washer button on the opposite stalk as our Y, where the e stop is when you're driving. After hitting the e stop a couple times in the Y after driving the Subaru, I always stop and go through a charade of remembering where the washer is on the Y every time I get in it.

People saying this is a user issue: I'll come over and swap your brake and throttle pedals, send you an email about it to an old account you never check, update page 73 of the online owner's manual, and see how you like that next time you drive your car. That's how messed up this is. These are the controls that make the car go, steer and stop. Don't mess with them.

 

[zoomer0056]

And you just explained why it's even more confusing.

It seems very simple to me. What can't you figure out?

Mind you, I have a stalkless yoked 2022 MSLR. Operation is with a thumb wheel. No problems. Maybe it's confusing with a stalked Model 3, I don't know about stalks.

 

[Phlier]

Fellow major airline pilot here, and I just wanted to chime in to say that I completely agree with everything MarcMerlin has said.

One addition: The last update has made all of the aural beeps and boops (including turn signal) so quiet that not even my teenage kids can hear them. And no, I do not have Joe Mode turned on.

Full speech announcements would allow the driver to not only clearly understand what mode(s) are enabled, but also allow the driver to keep his/her/whatever eyes on the road instead of searching for where the latest update has placed the tiny blue steering wheel.

IMO, Elon et al is going to learn this by either listening to those of us that are literally professional systems monitors or by FA/FO in a court of law when a case is successfully argued that system status notifications are woefully inadequate.

Also IMO, it’s going to be the latter. Too bad, as this is a solved problem; no wheel needs to be re-invented, no NN, no AI, no machine learning. Just apply what the airline industry has been doing for decades.

 

[marcmerlin]

Jeeze Louise... even Not A Tesla App (NATA) can get it right. I've corrected many times when people say I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on. Autopilot is a set of features, of which two are TACC (not auto throttle?!) and Autosteer. Even NATA says Autopilot when they mean Autosteer. The terminology is shown correctly in their article graphic but they still get it wrong. Ha, and they say owners are confused! I think NATA is confused by using new owners on TMC as "sources familiar with".
View attachment 991031

Something else, just to point out how much the current state is a mess:
This picture showing single pull vs double pull, well, guess what, this isn't there on my car. I have an M3 APv2 with HW3 and FSD beta the last branch. There is no such option.
So I think you get my point: having such variety and uncertainty across software versions and otherwise similar looking cars, just makes things worse and further adds the need for the car clearly telling you what mode you're actually in

 

[marcmerlin]

Fellow major airline pilot here, and I just wanted to chime in to say that I completely agree with everything MarcMerlin has said.

One addition: The last update has made all of the aural beeps and boops (including turn signal) so quiet that not even my teenage kids can hear them. And no, I do not have Joe Mode turned on.

Full speech announcements would allow the driver to not only clearly understand what mode(s) are enabled, but also allow the driver to keep his/her/whatever eyes on the road instead of searching for where the latest update has placed the tiny blue steering wheel.

IMO, Elon et al is going to learn this by either listening to those of us that are literally professional systems monitors or by FA/FO in a court of law when a case is successfully argued that system status notifications are woefully inadequate.

Also IMO, it’s going to be the latter. Too bad, as this is a solved problem; no wheel needs to be re-invented, no NN, no AI, no machine learning. Just apply what the airline industry has been doing for decades.

Thanks. I think so far no one has died over this which is great news, but I'm sure there have already been multiple non fatal accidents due to this. I had one, ultimately it was my fault for being too tired to realize that AP had not fully engaged and only had TACC and not autosteer. My brain didn't properly decode the sounds because I was not at my best that day. If it had spoken to me, I know I would have heard it right. Same reason that planes now tell you "gear up" if your gear isn't down for landing, and "stall" instead of 2 similar sounding chimes that have caused way too many gear up landings when the pilot got confused between the 2 sounds.

But yeah, I totally see that one day it's going to be bad for someone, it is avoidable and I really want Tesla to fix it before we get there and a lawyer pulls this thread in court and shows everyone that this was a well known issue that Tesla had been complacent on and unwilling to fix for unknown reasons. And come on, everyone here using AP does not want more fatal accidents where AP is to blame, this is just going to put more regulations against AP and make AP harder for us to use. Even if you are much smarter than us and could not make that mistake ever, somehow, the fact that others have and can, should still be a concern for you for that reason alone.
For people in this thread who do care and agree, please contact your tesla sales rep, service advisor, or customer support, and tell them how you feel. If enough customers tell them, it may make a difference.
If you don't have anyone you can easily contact, you can try Emailing corporateautoresolutions <at> tesla.com

 

[uscbucsfan]

Fellow major airline pilot here, and I just wanted to chime in to say that I completely agree with everything MarcMerlin has said.

One addition: The last update has made all of the aural beeps and boops (including turn signal) so quiet that not even my teenage kids can hear them. And no, I do not have Joe Mode turned on.

Full speech announcements would allow the driver to not only clearly understand what mode(s) are enabled, but also allow the driver to keep his/her/whatever eyes on the road instead of searching for where the latest update has placed the tiny blue steering wheel.

IMO, Elon et al is going to learn this by either listening to those of us that are literally professional systems monitors or by FA/FO in a court of law when a case is successfully argued that system status notifications are woefully inadequate.

Also IMO, it’s going to be the latter. Too bad, as this is a solved problem; no wheel needs to be re-invented, no NN, no AI, no machine learning. Just apply what the airline industry has been doing for decades.

Turn Joe mode on then off. There's a bug where it gets reversed.

It's actually louder without Joe Mode IMO now.

 

[Phlier]

Even if you are much smarter than us and could not make that mistake ever, somehow, the fact that others have and can, should still be a concern for you for that reason alone.

That point is what people need to keep in the front of their minds when considering this issue.

I see too many “Well, that could NEVER happen to me” responses when we need to be thinking about everyone driving these vehicles. We need to be lowering the chance that it could happen to anyone. And don’t get me started on how many pilots thought that THEY could never land with the gear up. Think you’re so smart that you could never confuse what mode your car is operating in? You’re right… right up until you’re not.

A lot of guys are probably wondering why we are taking this so seriously. When you’ve read all the accident reports and all the lives needlessly lost it becomes a subject pilots tend to take very seriously.

Airlines drill proper system monitoring into our heads. Engineers have spent thousands of hours solving ways to properly annunciate system status. And yes, we do tend to take it seriously. Elon should, too.

 

[Phlier]

Turn Joe mode on then off. There's a bug where it gets reversed.

It's actually louder without Joe Mode IMO now.

Thanks, I will try that.