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"Holy cow!!" A P90D Ludicrous test drive report from a P85D owner

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I usually get called a maniac around 0.5G. Normal people think they're about to die getting close to 1G. 1.11G is fantastic for what is really a GT car. Tesla really needs to play up the handling more.

1.1G was kinda crazy. I was trying to find context to share, but it's hard to. At 0.4 I'd feel one side of my torso not even touching the bolster of the seat on one side, 0.7 was in the realm of less ideal on roads with cars around and you feel it, and then to get that higher it really felt very exponential in and that it took a lot more work to reach it.

When I hit 0.94 and 0.97 it was in a not so great place to do it and made it that much more intense, but when I hit 1.1 in a safer place I really thought the rear was about to slide and I was doing about 60 on the onramp at the time.
 
"Holy cow!!" A P90D Ludicrous test drive report from a P85D owner

1.1 is very impressive.

When I take the Ariel Atom to the track in Hallett, OK, I see 1.2 lateral g peaks as recorded by Harry's Lap Timer (and previously with a Traqmate). This has Sparco seats that don't let you move around, so I don't notice the lateral movement you mention. At this point, it gets difficult to hold your head (with a helmet) upright. Neck muscles are generally not up to the task and start getting weak/sore by the end of a 15 minute lap session.

The Atom can definitely do more than I am able to get out of it. My fastest lap time at Hallett is 1:32. People with similar-equipped Atoms can get something around 1:22. I believe the track record for an Atom is 1:17. While I'm not necessarily pushing the Atom to the limits, getting a similar lateral g reading in a large sedan as what I'm comfortable doing in a lightweight purpose-built vehicle is even more impressive.

For those that aren't familiar, the Atom is a 1,500 pound track-centric vehicle, designed to be able to be tagged for the street in many cases. Getting the same g-readings as what I feel comfortable doing on a track environment is really impressive.
 
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.. that would be one of these. Like you say, it seriously exercises the neck muscles. Over a seasons racing I ended up with an enlarged neck and lots of shirt collars that didn't fit anymore !

Neck Muscle exerciser.jpg
 
1.1 is very impressive.

When I take the Ariel Atom to the track in Hallett, OK, I see 1.2 lateral g peaks as recorded by Harry's Lap Timer (and previously with a Traqmate). This has Sparco seats that don't let you move around, so I don't notice the lateral movement you mention. At this point, it gets difficult to hold your head (with a helmet) upright. Neck muscles are generally not up to the task and start getting weak/sore by the end of a 15 minute lap session.

The Atom can definitely do more than I am able to get out of it. My fastest lap time at Hallett is 1:32. People with similar-equipped Atoms can get something around 1:22. I believe the track record for an Atom is 1:17. While I'm not necessarily pushing the Atom to the limits, getting a similar lateral g reading in a large sedan as what I'm comfortable doing in a lightweight purpose-built vehicle is even more impressive.

For those that aren't familiar, the Atom is a 1,500 pound track-centric vehicle, designed to be able to be tagged for the street in many cases. Getting the same g-readings as what I feel comfortable doing on a track environment is really impressive.

.. that would be one of these. Like you say, it seriously exercises the neck muscles. Over a seasons racing I ended up with an enlarged neck and lots of shirt collars that didn't fit anymore !

Driving an Atom on a track must be awesome! I considered buying one, but I don't have a place to keep it.

swaltner, your comments on the track environment made me think about the experience a little more and I felt I should give a disclaimer to everyone about doing it off a track.

There are a lot of people that would be totally fine pushing the car like I did, but I really want to point out that doing this on a public road wasn't a great idea and is in no way like launching or even driving fast through turns. The car can handle it, but it doesn't mean it's safe to do. I don't want my confirmation of what the car can do to make it seem like it's something you just go do, like launching at a light or going to the drag strip. When I planned to do it, I thought I had already had the car near 1G on a particular road, but testing some turns I saw I had only seen 0.7-0.8. I'm not sure I'd want someone in the car with me going over 0.8G unless it was on a track, at least not on the road I was on.

When I did the test I drove at a time when no cars would be on the road so only I was at risk. I have driven the road many times in a few Teslas and had already pushed it through corners. To hit 0.97G I had to go faster than I had before, accelerate in the turn, avoid the apex, and when I reached the peak it was pretty dangerous. Road choice makes a difference in safety and in some ways it was a good road to do it on and in others it wasn't, but had I lost traction it would have ended very very badly.

When I used the onramp I entered the turn at around 30 and exited around 60 and I don't know if it is the weight of the car or what, but it felt way different when it felt like the tires were going to give out. I've intentionally and accidentally lost traction in corners before so I know the feeling and it just felt really different.

Here's the onramp, which you can see by the size of the cars is pretty tight.
ramp.jpg


I just wanted to mention this because I don't want anyone getting hurt trying to get 1G laterally just because the car can handle it. If it is something you want to do then take it to a track and build up to it and also try to have a PBOX or some other device to monitor where you're at so you don't push too far.
 
Let me add my $0.02 to the thread: I got to drive one of the dealer P90DL's last week, and I can confirm it indeed has snap well through 60 (where lack of safe road caused me to cease testing).

For any of you on the fence before ordering one [The upgrade to 'P' or upgrade to Ludicrous]... if you can afford it, I highly recommend it. The smooth, instantaneous torque is even more beautiful in the wake of emissions cheating by others. I mean... wow, there are like three production cars within an order of magnitude of price that can do this... and unlike those cars, for normal city driving, you have efficiencies that smoke the eco-cars [pun not really intended].

I've placed my deposit for the upgrade.
 
1.11G

That took some effort. I was able to get 0.94 and 0.97 without making tires howl. 1.11 started to get to the point where traction was getting close to giving, but I could have probably pushed it a little further.
Pete90D -- your 1.1 Gs is fantastic! Do you have the staggered or non-staggered 21"? Also, which brand of tires? And if you have the recent, more compliant suspension, do you think it degrades handling? My early-March P85D has 21" wheels delivered non-staggered with Continentals, which was a disappointment. However, I believe the suspension has the stiff roll bars: body roll is undetectable. I like stiff suspensions and would be dissatisfied if it was more compliant.

I have twisty country roads where I live but have been afraid to push the PD anywhere near what its limit must be (fear of the inertia of 2 1/2 tons of batteries flying off the road). Sounds like I should push harder.
 
Any chance you lost the go-pedal, during your turns? I can consistently have the pedal go almost dead in the (non-arrowed) turn below. I get around the left side, hold it, and get this rush of acceleration after the steering comes close to center. I can be unwinding from 90, to 40 degrees. Almost nothing. Get to ~10, and wham. Your image looks like you may have achieved a speed, or steering angle, where a limiter wouldn't have kicked in. It is tough to tell how steering angle, and speed may be involved. A 90 degree turn is another place where you might notice the "steering acceleration" effect, I'm getting at. I'm beginning to think it isn't consistent among the PD's, since I otherwise cannot believe you wouldn't have encountered it, given what you did. Maybe you weren't trying to exit, going in slow, out fast with more pedal? I think it's time to take mine in. Do I claim "electron starvation"?

-Two (clear) lanes are safer, than one
-If the ramp is banked, which most are, your G-reading may inflate the car's ability to hold the value you are looking at. Banking makes up for grip.
Thanks for sharing your data.


turnaround.jpg


[Edit: I don't think Tesla's front spindle/bearings are meant for this.]
 
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I can consistently have the pedal go almost dead in the turn below. I get around the left side, hold it, and get this rush of acceleration after the steering comes close to center.
Could this just be Tesla's really, really good traction control in action? Tires provide some number of Gs along a vector in any direction. If the whole traction budget is used for lateral Gs in a turn, the traction control will restrain acceleration so the budget isn't exceeded where the tires break loose. As the wheel straightens and lateral Gs diminish, the traction control adds power and forward acceleration, always keeping the vector sum below the limit.
 
I'm not an expert in these areas, however I do feel that the traction control in my P85D is way too conservative. Specifically when I'm in a turn it really hampers acceleration, more than I think it needs to, but of course I can't turn it off to find out if I'm right that it can handle more.

It reminds me of when I drove a SL55 AMG which is ~550HP rear-wheel drive. With traction control on it dramatically hampered engine output (albeit in a much more annoying fashion than the Tesla does). Obviously in a turn with that much horsepower only in the rear wheels it would be very easy to lose control. Compared to the 911 Turbo S I used to own, which is AWD; it would really let you push the limits of accelerating in a turn.

I wonder if the traction control in the P85D hasn't been modified enough from the old P85+ rear-wheel drive model. I feel I should be able to get full power to the front wheels even in a turn, and also a good chunk of power from the rear.
 
It reminds me of when I drove a SL55 AMG which is ~550HP rear-wheel drive. With traction control on it dramatically hampered engine output (albeit in a much more annoying fashion than the Tesla does). Obviously in a turn with that much horsepower only in the rear wheels it would be very easy to lose control. Compared to the 911 Turbo S I used to own, which is AWD; it would really let you push the limits of accelerating in a turn.
I bought an SL55 the year it came out (2003). It had engine problems the dealer could not fix, so they bought it back for nearly what I paid. I replaced it with a 2004 SL600, which I still have, but now rarely drive thanks to the Tesla. The SL600 has Renntech software, a strengthened transmission, larger intercooler, and Brabus exhaust. 600+ HP and 700 lb-ft. Its traction control is terrible, or more accurately it is not properly programmed for the modifications. At low speeds it is safe to hit the gas only if the wheel is dead straight. When the automatic downshifts to first, and sometimes even to second, there is a moment of wheel spin and fishtailing (should have gotten a limited slip diff) before the traction control kicks in. Then the engine bogs down until the tires hook up. The Tesla traction control is SO much better. Low speed acceleration in that Mercedes is hampered by wheel spin, but the car is great for passing: about 4.5s from 60 to 100. I hope the Ludicrous upgrade will feel as good.
 
I bought an SL55 the year it came out (2003). It had engine problems the dealer could not fix, so they bought it back for nearly what I paid. I replaced it with a 2004 SL600, which I still have, but now rarely drive thanks to the Tesla. The SL600 has Renntech software, a strengthened transmission, larger intercooler, and Brabus exhaust. 600+ HP and 700 lb-ft. Its traction control is terrible, or more accurately it is not properly programmed for the modifications. At low speeds it is safe to hit the gas only if the wheel is dead straight. When the automatic downshifts to first, and sometimes even to second, there is a moment of wheel spin and fishtailing (should have gotten a limited slip diff) before the traction control kicks in. Then the engine bogs down until the tires hook up. The Tesla traction control is SO much better. Low speed acceleration in that Mercedes is hampered by wheel spin, but the car is great for passing: about 4.5s from 60 to 100. I hope the Ludicrous upgrade will feel as good.

It sounds like they over-corrected. I test drove a 2007-ish model and the engine literally sputtered if you hit the gas in a turn in order to avoid losing traction (my assumption).
 
I'm sure it was a more advanced system by 2007, although my case is more an example of the unintended consequences of modifications. For example, kick-down from 3rd to 2nd in the Renntech SL600 is fine for a moment until the turbos spool up at which point the tires would break free and spin without warning. Then TC would kick in and the engine would bog down. I learned to prevent this by lifting a moment after the kick down. The Renntech software probably keeps the waste gates closed at all times so pressure and torque of the bi-turbo V12 peak at some ungodly level in the middle of the RPM band. Nevertheless, I still love the car and it's passing power, which is why I still have it 11 years later.
But to keep this on topic, I think Tesla has the ultimate traction control in that it involves millisecond control of torque, without having to go through throttle and brakes. I think the 0-30 acceleration of the P85D/P90D is so great because that traction control system is the perfect launch control system - accelerating very near the point of loss of adhesion, but not over, and with all 4 wheels too. Despite much monkey business with the SL600, I had never experienced anything like the launch in my P85D (and its 4 wheel drive).
 
I'm not an expert in these areas, however I do feel that the traction control in my P85D is way too conservative. Specifically when I'm in a turn it really hampers acceleration, more than I think it needs to, but of course I can't turn it off to find out if I'm right that it can handle more.

IMHO the whole thing is driven by Elon destroying his F1. I hope over time (not too much time) we get some "fun" modes. Like M mode on BMW's that allows 15 degrees of yaw before stability control takes action.
 
As the wheel straightens and lateral Gs diminish, the traction control adds power and forward acceleration

That's just it. It doesn't. It is very basic for a performance car to be able to accelerate, as a steering wheel unwinds. It shouldn't dump this crap ton of acceleration on you, when the car is almost virtually straight again. That's neither fast, nor rewarding. When I open the steering wheel, I know I'm buying grip. It's what I teach "green" group drivers, anyway.

IMHO the whole thing is driven by Elon destroying his F1. I hope over time (not too much time) we get some "fun" modes. Like M mode on BMW's that allows 15 degrees of yaw before stability control takes action.

Didn't hear the F1 story. Links? It makes too much sense. Elon cites numbers, but doesn't seem like he's got the passion for driving. It's a shame because it would be so easy to keep more customers, with a little programming. I'm not Walter Ruhl, but am enough of a driver to know when a car is really being held back.
 
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But to keep this on topic, I think Tesla has the ultimate traction control in that it involves millisecond control of torque, without having to go through throttle and brakes. I think the 0-30 acceleration of the P85D/P90D is so great because that traction control system is the perfect launch control system - accelerating very near the point of loss of adhesion, but not over, and with all 4 wheels too. Despite much monkey business with the SL600, I had never experienced anything like the launch in my P85D (and its 4 wheel drive).

Launches are great unless you turn the wheel, that's my point. I'm 99% sure I'd love and be able to handle 25% more power in a turn.
 
I Just drove a P90DL and it was noticeably faster when punching it while doing 30 or 40 mph, however off the line wasn't as noticeable of a difference then my P85D. That being said shortly after the test drive i received an email stating that the P85D upgrade to Luda would be a 0.2 second increase in the 0-60 time rather then the 0.3 we might be expecting, no mention of what the difference would be in the 30 - 50mph or 50 - 70mph range.
 
I Just drove a P90DL and it was noticeably faster when punching it while doing 30 or 40 mph, however off the line wasn't as noticeable of a difference then my P85D. That being said shortly after the test drive i received an email stating that the P85D upgrade to Luda would be a 0.2 second increase in the 0-60 time rather then the 0.3 we might be expecting, no mention of what the difference would be in the 30 - 50mph or 50 - 70mph range.
Official mass-email or personal email only to you?