P90D subframe cracked / rear toe links issue PLEASE HELP

[SEKS]

Hello all,

My late 2015 MS P90D, 100.000KM, AP1 Air suspension Tesla, has a very weird issue, that was simply there one day. My wive drives the car as well, but neither of us ever had an accident. The car is standing on staggered 21” Turbines with pretty new Michelin PS4 Acoustic (good profile still) and the issue is also there with a different set of 21” Turbine wheels (4x245 winter tires, non staggered).

What’s wrong?
It feels like the car’s geometry is shifting slightly under medium-moderate (and definetely when flooring it) acceleration. It’s like the front of the car is taking a small step to the right, then a moment later the rear comes to the right and the car feels more straight again . When I release the pedal, as in cut power output to the motors, the car shift back left a bit again.
There is no noise when all of this happens, and it also does not happen or is atleast much less noticeable when I accelerate very slowly.
Apart from this issue, the car drives very well, but sometimes there is a kind of single “clunk” sound, when driving (even, but not exclusive to low speeds) over a pothole or bump, ESPECIALLY while taking a turn. Not sure if related, but I wouldn’t be surprised and believe it comes from the front.. but not 100% sure.

What was done so far:
Tesla charged me to test drive my car, said the mechanic didn’t feel anything. He only said it’s probably caused by my 15mm wheel spacers in combo with the 21” original turbines. They ignoring my part of the report in the Tesla app service request that this issue was already there BEFORE I installed these wheel spacers.
Also they didn’t want to check alignment on my car because of the spacers (which I guess is their common approach; annoying but so be it).

So, I took my loss and went to a n independent garage which also services and aligns many Tesla’s.
They put my car on their lift, and during inspection of the front suspension they measured that my passenger side (Right) front wheel was atleast 5mm closer towards the back, in comparison to the other (left) side. Also the angle of the suspension components looked different.

I took a picture during the inspection:

They recommended to replace both lower control arms on both sides.

1027351-00-C
6007998-00-C

Next I did some due diligence on the matter and agreed to the repair. According to my instructions they cut the bolt instead of dropping the battery, and replaced all the bolts that they had to loosen during the process with new, original ones.

They did not replace the upper control arms, nor those thin front (steering?) links (not sure about the name), nor did they look at the tie rods, subframe nor steering rack etc.

So, after they replaced the control arms, they did an alignment, but the issue as I described in the beginning of this post still remained.

Next thing, I put the car on jackstands, both front and rear, and pulled and pressed pretty hard one by one on all four wheels, in all directions, but couldn’t feel any play. (Not sure how much force would be required tho, or which movements in what directions I should’ve focused on TBH..)

Hours of searching online later:
During this time I think I’ve read all the posts on multiple forums describing similar issues; came across things like rear toe links causing similar issues, but also came across (some more costly) issues like cracked subframes, tie rod issues, broken steering racks, bushings and I even read about issues with the front axles.. (which I can’t somehow relate to this issue).

So, question to everyone who might be able to help me understand: How can I check / see that my rear toe links or subframe OR something else is the cause? Could this be caused by air suspension (leaks or miscalibration?)
I have all tools (pneumatic tools, torgue wrenches and most other tools required to take the average car apart. I also have access to a car lift during the evening hours. I’m not a mechanic, but I have experience doing repairs on my other cars and bikes throughout the years.

Any advise on where to start, apart from simply throwing new parts at it or switching all my components back to stock and bringing it back to Tesla, would be greatly appreciated. I do not necessarily have to DIY this thing, but I don’t mind at all to get my hands dirty and have some friends who are similar minded.

Thanks in advanced for taking the time to read this wall of text, and in advanced for possibly help me solve this.
I have notifications turned on on this thread and am keen on working and solving this issue, and keep everyone up to date.

 

[shahryaran]

Remove the spacers and test drive.
To test for Crack in subframe, you put the car all the way up so you can stand under it, and start levering stuff with crowbar (don't lever against battery).
Then you'll see anything that moves

 

[SEKS]

Remove the spacers and test drive.
To test for Crack in subframe, you put the car all the way up so you can stand under it, and start levering stuff with crowbar (don't lever against battery).
Then you'll see anything that moves

great idea! will definitely do. I’ve driven the car without spacers, the issue as described was still there, so I remounted the spacers. Either way, I think I’ll remove them again atleast until this issue is resolved.

BTW, How much work is it drop the subframe? I’ve read on multiple occasions that whenever it’s cracked, this happens almost exclusively at the subframe-bracket that attaches to the control arms — is welding the cracked off part (back on) a common fix?

 

[SEKS]

UPDATE:

Sub Frames do not flex, tried to make them move using a large crow bar, but they are very tight. I used a torque wrench to tighten it according to spec anyway.

Any pointers on the next logical step? Is there a way how to rule out the rear toe links without simply replacing them?

cc @shahryaran

 

[shahryaran]

UPDATE:

Sub Frames do not flex, tried to make them move using a large crow bar, but they are very tight. I used a torque wrench to tighten it according to spec anyway.

Any pointers on the next logical step? Is there a way how to rule out the rear toe links without simply replacing them?

cc @shahryaran

Check bolt to bolt measurement with caliper

 

[SEKS]

Check bolt to bolt measurement with caliper

thanks, will check this. Upcoming Thursday I have access to car lift again. Any other things I should check that could cause this strange side step when stepping on the accelerator?

 

[shahryaran]

thanks, will check this. Upcoming Thursday I have access to car lift again. Any other things I should check that could cause this strange side step when stepping on the accelerator?

Shift in driving dynamic alignment is caused by change in the car's geometry

 

[GHammer]

Has the torque on the inner toe arm bolt been checked? That's what the problem was when this happened to my P85. Two different times, once on each side the inner toe arm bolt was undertorqued.

 

[shahryaran]

thanks, will check this. Upcoming Thursday I have access to car lift again. Any other things I should check that could cause this strange side step when stepping on the accelerator?

Shift in driving dynamic alignment is caused by change in the car's geometry

 

[dbeiler]

Make sure you load/raise the suspension to ride height when you're checking the rear toe links. You won't be able to detect worn rear toe links if the suspension is just hanging/drooping free because the weight of the suspension puts so much strain and pressure against the worn link, it will feel tight even though it's very loose at ride height. My preferred method to check rear toe links on any independent rear suspension is: With the car on the ground, measure from the wheel to the fender. Raise the car on the lift. Using a pole jack or floor jack under the wheel or lower link, raise the wheel/hub/suspension until it matches the wheel to fender measurement you took earlier. You may need to jack up both rear wheels at the same time or disconnect the sway bar if you cannot achieve the desired measurement. Grasp the front and back section of the wheel and attempt to rock it back and force to detect free-play in any suspension links.

 

[SEKS]

@shahryaran in about 3 hours from now I will have the car on the lift and will start. Many thanks so far for the pointers

Will post an update later

 

[SEKS]

Make sure you load/raise the suspension to ride height when you're checking the rear toe links. You won't be able to detect worn rear toe links if the suspension is just hanging/drooping free because the weight of the suspension puts so much strain and pressure against the worn link, it will feel tight even though it's very loose at ride height. My preferred method to check rear toe links on any independent rear suspension is: With the car on the ground, measure from the wheel to the fender. Raise the car on the lift. Using a pole jack or floor jack under the wheel or lower link, raise the wheel/hub/suspension until it matches the wheel to fender measurement you took earlier. You may need to jack up both rear wheels at the same time or disconnect the sway bar if you cannot achieve the desired measurement. Grasp the front and back section of the wheel and attempt to rock it back and force to detect free-play in any suspension links.

this is gold. will follow the steps! Thank you kindly!

 

[SEKS]

Update:

Got lucky and had help from a senior engineer.

Checked subframe, no issues
Checked toe links, no issues
All-around alignment checked, perfect.

All bolts torqued to spec.

He then connected it over OBD2 (Bosch computer) to check for error codes, and found a shitload. He deleted them. Car still drives the same.
After driving for 5 minutes, none of the codes reappeared.

I also checked Service Mode and also found a bunch. I have pictures of all these and will compose a list and do some searches here and online to see to what they are related.

Weird thing remains: Wuite often during a sharp turn to left, a SINGLE CLING-sound (metal on metal) is noticeable which comes from the FRONT RIGHT; as if something comes in contact during that turn, OR something is not torqued (front motor?), allows something to shift / slide. Related? I assume so.

I fear that I have no other choice than to return to Tesla.

What else on the right side could this be? front axle?

I still have warranty on the motor till December - how likely is this?

Many questions. Thanks for reading so far.

 

[shahryaran]

Update:

Got lucky and had help from a senior engineer.

Checked subframe, no issues
Checked toe links, no issues
All-around alignment checked, perfect.

All bolts torqued to spec.

He then connected it over OBD2 (Bosch computer) to check for error codes, and found a shitload. He deleted them. Car still drives the same.
After driving for 5 minutes, none of the codes reappeared.

I also checked Service Mode and also found a bunch. I have pictures of all these and will compose a list and do some searches here and online to see to what they are related.

Weird thing remains: Wuite often during a sharp turn to left, a SINGLE CLING-sound (metal on metal) is noticeable which comes from the FRONT RIGHT; as if something comes in contact during that turn, OR something is not torqued (front motor?), allows something to shift / slide. Related? I assume so.

I fear that I have no other choice than to return to Tesla.

What else on the right side could this be? front axle?

I still have warranty on the motor till December - how likely is this?

Many questions. Thanks for reading so far.

Sounds like the speed controller is missing phases

 

[SteelClouds]

Cling or clunk? There are not too many thing on the front that will cling. Has to be lightweight and thin. Like the dust shield on the brakes. That sort of thing. Clunks are more substantial and can be suspension components shifting. Think loose sway bar, bad bushing that sort of thing. A ticking can be the splines on the front axles. Or wheel bearing. I’ve seen a light tick/clunk from improperly torques wheel hubs. I’ve seen clunks from bad bushings on the struts or in one case, a loose strut from poor work. The strut was fine sitting or even driving most of the time due to loads but if you went over a dip, it would unload a bit then clunk when the weight came back down. That was a challenge to find.

 

[SEKS]

Hi all, small update:

Car is going in for Tesla service next week to localize the issue. Will update this thread with info and the repair bill as soon as they’re available. Thanks for all the help so far!

ps. I have a drive unit limited warranty untill Dec 2023. Are halfshafts etc. covered as well? Probably not..

 

[SEKS]

Hi all, small update:

Car is going in for Tesla service next week to localize the issue. Will update this thread with info and the repair bill as soon as they’re available. Thanks for all the help so far!

ps. I have a drive unit limited warranty untill Dec 2023. Are halfshafts etc. covered as well? Probably not..

short update from my side.. Tesla still hasn’t found the time to plan in my car to start looking at it, despite the app providing me the date of 21.11.2023 for a service appointment. In the meantime the car remains parked.

To be continued..

 

[SEKS]

Cling or clunk? There are not too many thing on the front that will cling. Has to be lightweight and thin. Like the dust shield on the brakes. That sort of thing. Clunks are more substantial and can be suspension components shifting. Think loose sway bar, bad bushing that sort of thing. A ticking can be the splines on the front axles. Or wheel bearing. I’ve seen a light tick/clunk from improperly torques wheel hubs. I’ve seen clunks from bad bushings on the struts or in one case, a loose strut from poor work. The strut was fine sitting or even driving most of the time due to loads but if you went over a dip, it would unload a bit then clunk when the weight came back down. That was a challenge to find.

Hello everyone, after waiting two weeks on this appointment, I just got the car back from Tesla service center.

I had to pay a total of €173.03 after taxes for diagnosing the issue, including a test drive by the mechanic.

While there, the mechanic recognized the swaying issue during a test drive and concluded this is not normal at all.
During the repair, the Tesla technician came to the waiting room and started about the brand new front suspension components not being Tesla brand, but OEM style replacements (these look exactly the same as Tesla ones, that I still have BTW) by a well-known brand called Lemförder. I told him that the whole reason these components were replaced, was in an attempt to fix this strange behavior in load & regen.

I then told him, that a couple folks that I spoke to about this issue, told me that this sounds like something with the drive unit / half shafts.
He then said that it is then probably not caused by these after-market Lemförder components and went back to work on the car for another 45 minutes untill it was ready for pick up. Not sure what he did, but perhaps he re-torqued some bolts or did something with the software: the invoice says the exact same as the technician notes in the app: see screenshot

The car felt a little better after picking it up on these slow-roads (could’ve been between my ears..), but driving the car home required me to get on the high way quickly, where I could test the acceleration & regen a better.
My conclusion immediately: problem is still present!

Now I find on the invoice “put in old original Tesla suspension”.

My drive unit warranty will expire on 29-Dec this year.

I start to fear they are deliberately wasting time to avoid a costly repair like a drive unit replacement. They now want to force me into a position where I have to put in the old suspension components again, get the car aligned again, then return it. Wasting precious time and money. Any advice on how to approach this is welcome.. could still be ofcourse that it is not the drive unit, but rear suspension or something.. But they didn’t even start about that..

 

[Gtech]

Hello everyone, after waiting two weeks on this appointment, I just got the car back from Tesla service center.

I had to pay a total of €173.03 after taxes for diagnosing the issue, including a test drive by the mechanic.

While there, the mechanic recognized the swaying issue during a test drive and concluded this is not normal at all.
During the repair, the Tesla technician came to the waiting room and started about the brand new front suspension components not being Tesla brand, but OEM style replacements (these look exactly the same as Tesla ones, that I still have BTW) by a well-known brand called Lemförder. I told him that the whole reason these components were replaced, was in an attempt to fix this strange behavior in load & regen.

I then told him, that a couple folks that I spoke to about this issue, told me that this sounds like something with the drive unit / half shafts.
He then said that it is then probably not caused by these after-market Lemförder components and went back to work on the car for another 45 minutes untill it was ready for pick up. Not sure what he did, but perhaps he re-torqued some bolts or did something with the software: the invoice says the exact same as the technician notes in the app: see screenshot
View attachment 995587
The car felt a little better after picking it up on these slow-roads (could’ve been between my ears..), but driving the car home required me to get on the high way quickly, where I could test the acceleration & regen a better.
My conclusion immediately: problem is still present!

Now I find on the invoice “put in old original Tesla suspension”.

My drive unit warranty will expire on 29-Dec this year.

I start to fear they are deliberately wasting time to avoid a costly repair like a drive unit replacement. They now want to force me into a position where I have to put in the old suspension components again, get the car aligned again, then return it. Wasting precious time and money. Any advice on how to approach this is welcome.. could still be ofcourse that it is not the drive unit, but rear suspension or something.. But they didn’t even start about that..

Had the same complaint, left rear toe arm would move under de/acceleration. Car felt little like a crab that moved sideways when slamming it. When jacked up could feel no play on the wheel itself.

When I removed the toe arm bolts you could see wear on bolt and also on toe arm bushing where it touches the alu subframe. (Have no picture of toe arm unfortunately but I think it had been going on for a long time with previous owner also)