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Holding on to your Roadster. . .

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I’m the second owner of a once daily-driver 2011 Roaster 2.5 with about 70K miles on it. The car recently came out of the body shop for some minor cosmetic surgery and is now in absolutely perfect condition. I also replaced the leather seats and all the interior carpeting. Mechanically all is perfect and it charges to about 155 on a regular charge and just over 200 on a range charge. I plan to keep the car off the road save for the periodic short road trip into the mountains/desert, etc. I have a covered place to park it 24/7 and top it off when needed. I adore the car overall.

Is this thing going to actually appreciate in value, ever? Am I being financially responsible just holding this thing? It’s basically a sculpture – but a damn gorgeous one. . .

Let’s have a serious discussion about current/future values of our Roadsters.
 
Nobody knows. I think the current price of $48-57k for a 2008 (1.5), $60-75k for a 2010 (2.0) and $65-85k for a 2011 (2.5) is pretty stable right now and I don't anticipate it getting lower for the next few years. But appreciation is something that isn't known until it happens.

I have car magazines from 20 years ago with lots of cars in the classifieds section I should have bought because they're worth 10-20 times more now. Nobody knew it then.
 
Cars are almost always a terrible investment, even ones that appreciate in value. The other day I was reading an article about someone who bought a "Smokey & The Bandit" style Trans-Am brand new and kept it garaged un-driven the last forty years. The article was going on about how amazingly much money it's worth now. But I compared the numbers to what return he would have gotten if he had put the money into an S&P 500 index fund instead and it wasn't even close. The S&P 500 has gone up 25x since 1977. I think the car had gone up about 10x, and that's not considering storage costs.

I paid 28k for a 1995 Twin Turbo Supra in 1997. Comparable cars are now selling for about 50k. If I hadn't driven it, I might get 60k for it. That's exceptionally good for a car, but adjusted for inflation, 28k in 1997 is worth 42.6k now, so the amazing appreciation of that Toyota has only somewhat beat simple inflation (again, not counting storage costs). If I had put that money into an S&P 500 index fund instead, it would be almost 100k now.

I don't regret buying the Supra of course, since I've had the use of a great car for the last twenty years, but while I recognize that I got off cheap compared to other cars, almost all of which would have depreciated to nearly zero by now, I'm not fooling myself into thinking it was some kind of "good investment". It was merely a car that was ultimately *less expensive* than most other cars would have been.

If you really see the Roadster purely as an investment, sell it immediately and put the money into an index fund.
 
Yeah, this is THE question. I only have a 2 car garage, and it doesn't make sense for the two cars to be a pair of Roadsters. So I would have to sell the Classic to buy the New, and I hate the idea of doing that. The classic Roadster "is me"; it's the car I should have always had, and my only regret is not buying it sooner.

That said, the rational argument goes somewhat differently. The car is 7 years old now (it's a 2010 non-sport), and by the time the new Roadster comes out, it will be 10+. Parts are already getting a bit scarce, and other than the 3.0 battery, that situation is not likely to improve. While I normally buy cars new and keep them for 15-20 years, keeping the car running as my daily driver for another 5-10 years is going to be risky. Assuming prices don't tank, trading in the old car on the new will represent a 25% discount, or thereabouts. Kind of makes sense. So, logic says to take the money that was being reserved for the 3.0 battery, and put that towards a reservation. Hopefully the current battery (CAC ~139) will make it another 3-4 years or so. Then trade up.

But I really want to keep the Classic Roadster. When you open the door and the coolant pump comes on, the car is like a happy puppy, awake and excited to go out for a walk. 1.9 seconds is certainly awesome, but the Classic has soul and personality. Will the new one?
 
We have talked about this before. I believe the original Roadsters will be worth a significant amount one day. But that day could be a very long ways off. I don't think comparing a Roadster to a Supra is equivalent as there were WAY more TT Supras made than Roadsters and while the Supra was a cool car (I was a 3000GT fan myself) it wasn't the turning point for an industry like the Roadster was.

That being said, the car market is like the art market. As there are multiple versions of the Roadster it's tough to know which ones will be worth a bundle and which won't. Will the early 1.5s do best? What about the Final Five 2.5s? What about a 1.5 that's been upgraded with the 3.0 battery? For the 2.0's and 2.5's will Sports be more valuable than Base models? Unlike an ICE you cannot mothball an EV. The batteries need care and even in Storage mode they will die over time. So in 20 years these cars will need new batteries in order to be driven. Will that wreck the collector's value?

Personally I would not keep a Roadster for investment purposes. But until a v4 Roadster appears in my driveway I'm just banging on a keyboard. Part of me thinks it would be fun to take my original Roadster to car shows and such, let my kids take it to prom, etc but the opportunity cost is large to just have it sitting around.

I expect prices will dip when the v4s start to ship as some number of people will trade up (perhaps even me). Since the Roadster market is a small one it won't take much extra supply to push prices down. That could be a boon for someone who's looking to get into an original Roadster.
 
Well, my position isn't based on the financial performance of the TT Supra (only about 7,000 in total were made, BTW), it's based on the historic performance of cars vs other investments. The reason I mentioned the Supra and that particular Trans-Am was just as examples of cars people claim were "good investments" but actually were not good investments at all, they were just somewhat less bad investments than most cars.

The DJIA and SP500 have gone up about 28x in the last 40 years. There are vanishingly few cars that have done anywhere near that.

You're right, it comes down to the opportunity cost. If you're not actually driving the car, you're not getting any fun or value out of it and relying on it as a pure financial investment, and it's a pretty slim longshot that in that capacity, it will outperform smart investing in real estate or financial markets, even considering its arguably special historic significance.
 
As someone who's studied the Roadster market for the past six years, I still believe the following will hold the highest value in the future:

Validation Prototypes (VINs VP01-VP32)
Founders Series (VINs F01-F25)
Signature 100 (U.S. Production VINs 1-100)
Final Five (U.S. Production VINs 1460-1464)

It's an already limited car, so I'd hope values will at least plateau in the near future (especially with the wealth of public limelight the Roadster name in general will FINALLY receive thanks to this Next-Gen model coming). Either way, true collectors & enthusiasts would probably want one of those VINs (myself included). I'm not personally hoping to collect any or let them sit around...it's quite the opposite of what I do in my spare time, as I frequently help potential owners acquire them. However - I would love to have one of my several be one of those special VINs.
 
On the one hand I think that the Roadster will hold its value over time (with the caveat that high mileage cars will be worth less than low mileage ones) because it is the car that really started the EV revolution and it was produced in such limited numbers.

But on the other hand I think that as we get closer to the new Roadster going on sale values will decline and once ithe new Roadster has been available for a few years values of the original Roadster will decline even further.

The original Roadster has almost none of the features that people expect in a car in that price range, and it looks positively primitive compared to any current model Tesla. And no Supercharging.

I plan to keep mine for years to come. It’s my regular car. It is not an investment.
 
The original roadster has a critical place in history, is quite rare, has great engineering inclusive of a carbon fiber body etc, had supercar competitive/leading performance at the time of introduction, and is quite beautiful. This is fact.

The value of the original roadster is tied directly to the future success of Tesla. The more successful the manufacturer, the more value it will have, Clearly the new roadster will give the original roadster visibility and be good for its value.

The new roadster is not competition for the original roadster. The original roadster tied previous generation raw driving experience in the spirit of Lotus with next generation EV enabled performance. The new generation roadster is just that, a generation far ahead in technology, performance, and price. I doubt many who are interested in the next generation roadster will care much about the previous generation roadster, except out of curiosity. Likewise, by that time some serious collectors will enter the previous generation roadster market and care little about the new one.

As others noted, roadster prices have seemed to level. Actually may have nudged up a slight bit in the past year.
My personal belief is that these cars will be easily worth north of 100k, but it will take a while, possibly
a very long while. They may have to get over a dip from being associated with "old" technology (similar to what ecarfan mentioned) before being recognized for their significant place in history which when I believe the price will rise rapidly.

If I had the resources, I would purchase a "final five" or the founder's with low mileage and keep that one as a garage queen.

Or I just may be wrong about all of this...

Personally, if the values stay stable, that is fine with me, I will keep the car and enjoy driving the car, regardless.

If one very sad day the parts disappear and the car doesn't run anymore, I will still keep it and visit it in the garage (or the living room) ;)
 
On the one hand I think that the Roadster will hold its value over time (with the caveat that high mileage cars will be worth less than low mileage ones) because it is the car that really started the EV revolution and it was produced in such limited numbers.

But on the other hand I think that as we get closer to the new Roadster going on sale values will decline and once ithe new Roadster has been available for a few years values of the original Roadster will decline even further.

The original Roadster has almost none of the features that people expect in a car in that price range, and it looks positively primitive compared to any current model Tesla. And no Supercharging.

I plan to keep mine for years to come. It’s my regular car. It is not an investment.
With the 3.0 battery, my Roadster will take me pretty much anywhere I would want to drive to on my own. Beyond that, I'd fly, take the train, or travel with family members in a larger car. I also have no desire to race or track the cars; 1.9 seconds may rarely get exercised, but for the most part, 3.9 seconds is nearly as effective in real life; going over, say, 80mph, probably never (at least not with witnesses). Insurance costs on the current car are also pretty reasonable, as are the consumables (tires, especially). So the current car really meets my needs, and apparently yours as well.

But the question: No car lasts forever. At what point do you grab a reservation, predicting in advance that you will need to relegate the current Roadster to museum status (aka garage queen on it's last legs) or dump it (sell as-is), and be without a daily driver? We have not heard any numbers, but judging by the posts and videos, Tesla appears to be having another Model 3 moment here with the reservations, and there could be a multi-year waiting list in front of us when the time comes. Do you think we'll get any clue as to the depth of the queue between now and, say, the Q4 Earnings Call in January? I think the only clue will be when the 1,000 Founders cars are all spoken for. Any predictions?
 
My personal belief is that these cars will be easily worth north of 100k, but it will take a while, possibly
a very long while. They may have to get over a dip from being associated with "old" technology (similar to what ecarfan mentioned) before being recognized for their significant place in history which when I believe the price will rise rapidly.
Here is a roughly comparable example that I have personal experience with:

From 1948 to 1965, Porsche produced various iterations of their 356 model: a 4 cylinder, air-cooled, 2+2 sports car (with a frunk! :).

It was replaced with the 911 model which debuted in 1964 (in America) which had 6 cylinders, still air-cooled, a more modern body style and numerous improvements. It also cost about 50% more (sound familiar?) which shocked the Porsche faithful, but they got over it.

Once the 911 went on sale, 356 values plummeted. Within five years you could get a 356 in decent shape for less than a quarter of their original price, and by the 80’s you could buy one for a hundred bucks (compared to as much as $4,000 when new). Almost no one wanted them. They were considered ancient history.

And then in the 90’s, 356 values started to edge up. Today a decent example will cost you at least $60,000 and nicely restored cars are over $100,000, with the rarer versions well over that.

But it took over 40 years for that appreciation to occur. Other vintage Porsche models, like the 70’s 914 and later the 924 as well as the 80’s 928 have not fared nearly as well.

I believe the 356 model rose in value because it represented the genesis of Porsche, a company which, after some near death experiences, became very successful and widely admired. One could argue that the “original” Roadster will always represent the genesis of Tesla, and that seems obvious. I believe that Tesla will be a very successful company. But how long will it take for values to significantly increase? There is no way to know the answer to that question. And there is no guarantee that they ever will.

The Roadster faces an additional challenge: it is likely that over time some parts will become increasingly hard to come by. A decade or so from now, Tesla is under no obligation to provide parts or service. The number of original Roadsters that will still be on the road by then will be tiny so that aftermarket parts suppliers are very unlikely to be interested in producing replacement parts. Repairing some aspects of a Roadster a decade or two in the future — let along 40 years on — will be difficult in the same way that trying to keep an early 80’s PC running is now: there won’t be many people around who remember how they worked!

In contrast, Porsche enthusiasts 20 years ago who set out to restore a vintage 356 model had a relatively easier time of it: they were working on an internal combustion engine that every mechanic understood the basic principles of operation of, the transmission had gears much like modern transmissions, there were still people around who knew how a carburetor worked, and so on. It was a 100% mechanical car: you could take it apart down to the last bolt and see how it worked by direct inspection.

As a Roadster owner it is in my own self-interest to argue that the car is going to soon be a valuable “collector’s classic” vehicle and greatly increase in value. But I am far from certain that will be the case.

p.s. I fully expect vintage computer enthusiasts to take umbrage over my description of the difficulties in operating their MS-DOS 1.0 machines today. ;-)
 
But it took over 40 years for that appreciation to occur. Other vintage Porsche models, like the 70’s 914 and later the 924 as well as the 80’s 928 have not fared nearly as well.

What about the 993-generation 911 (last air-cooled)? I remember in 2007 looking at Turbos in the $60-70K range. Today a well-sorted 993 Turbo goes for over $160K. There were just over 6,000 made.
 
p.s. I fully expect vintage computer enthusiasts to take umbrage over my description of the difficulties in operating their MS-DOS 1.0 machines today. ;-)
MS-DOS? Pffff! I'm in the process of resuscitating a pre-PC home computer that I built in 1978. Some parts are so simple they are trivial to debug, and some frustratingly opaque without spare parts to try swapping with.

The Roadster shares parts with many other cars (that were built in higher volume), yet has a few that are utterly unique and undocumented. I would hope that Tesla would provide some path for alternative (even self) service on those unique parts, though I fear a risk-averse legal stance might thwart that (as they have with Salvage titled cars). But these are the cars that started the company, so hopefully owner sentiment about not "EV1-ing" the cars over lack of support parts will help them realize that keeping our cars on the road and visible has value.
 
In my opinion, a car needs to appreciate more than 7% per year (average annual stock market increase) during your ownership period for it to qualify as a decent investment. This means that a Roadster worth $60k in 2017 would need to surpass $100k by 2025 to match stock market performance, which I think is certainly possible. Of course, there are still maintenance, insurance and registration costs and the enjoyment of owning a very historic car cannot be easily quantified.

If you just want to beat inflation rates, I would say that a Roadster will easily do that.
 
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A rule of thumb in the collector car world is after about 10 model years a car will either continue to go down or turn around and go up in value up and over their original price. The Roadster is starting to come into that age, so we will see.

I have collected cars for 30 years and almost bought a Roadster. What stopped me was the quantum leap up in performance and much superior all-Tesla build of the upcoming Roadster, which I have ordered with a deposit. My friends in the collector car world advised me not to buy one of the Lotus-based Tesla Roadsters as a collector car. I do not buy cars based on whether I think they are going up in price. I buy based on my desire to own them, so whether or not they go up in price is secondary to my purchase.

I am a car person and buy what I like. I've purchased Shelby Cobras when they were cheap and Porsche air cooled Turbos. I liked the cars and they appreciated well in value. I tried to like a Tiger, but did not and these cars never went up like a Cobra. Shelby's original Cobra was a great car.

After a test-drive I was very disappointed in the Roadster and did not like the ride, so I did not buy - even though I did desire a 2.5 Sport for its looks and almost paid 85K for one 2 years ago. Many owners are scared to sell their Roadsters because they fear prices are going to go up so they want more than the market will bear. A dealer bought a 2.5 Sport that I just missed and that dealer still has that car 2-3 years later and he is still trying to get more than it is worth. Tesla Roadster owners do not seem like collectors to me. Most original buyers are not collectors. The Roadster is rare, but 50K, 75K, 100K offers many alternatives, including many superior electric sports cars on the way.

I think the Lotus-based Tesla Roadster is a troublesome car and history will bear out the mistakes Tesla made and as a consequence I think prices will continue to go down for a while and reach a bottom before heading back up. Who would pay 50K to 100K for a Lotus-based Roadster when the new Roadster is a Tesla and the fastest production car in history at 200K? People with the money to pay 100K for cars want great cars, and no matter how historic I do not believe the original Roadsters are great cars. This is just my opinion. My advice is to sell if you are holding on for value appreciation and don't really love the car. If you love the car price is secondary. It always was with me, but I am a car person.
 
What about the 993-generation 911 (last air-cooled)? I remember in 2007 looking at Turbos in the $60-70K range. Today a well-sorted 993 Turbo goes for over $160K. There were just over 6,000 made.
Yes the 993’s have appreciated, after slumping when successor models were put into production. But as I noted, there are multiple examples of decades old Porsches that have never recovered from their post-production slump. It is extremely difficult to predict which models will become a valued “classic” and which models will slide down to rock bottom values and never recover.
 
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