Has Basic Autopilot improved (and phantom braking decreased) since radar was removed? (About to buy!)

[MonoPoly307]

Hey guys

I'm taking delivery of my new Model 3 on Friday... but I've been a bit spooked reading various articles about the removal of radar in 2021 (2022 in our market - Australia), and the deactivation of radars on cars which do have them.

I've had a Mazda CX-5 until now, and while the auto cruise control is a little laggy and clunky, it has proved to be rock-solid stopping when it should, and really hasn't displayed any phantom braking behaviour either.

Early reports of Vision-camera only Autopilot performing really poorly, and an increase in phantom braking, worries me a little. Especially in rain or on dark nights - when my CX-5's radar was still flawless.

Keen to hear from anyone about their experience over the last 18 months (or even newer owners coming from other brands), and whether there's been solid improvement in Basic Autopilot's performance. Have there been situations or locations which have caused it to perform badly a while back, but which have improved with recent software versions?

I'd love to have some confidence that I can trust Autopilot to make good choices, and importantly not to jam the brakes on for no reason on a freeway.

Thanks everyone! Hope to be joining you all as a Tesla owner very soon.

Cheers
Mike

 

[emmz0r]

Vision only has been OK for me.
The biggest problem is not Tesla vision but the lack of maintenance and correction of wrong speed limits. it seems to catch the speed limits of the roads next to it and suddenly slows down . it can also have the wrong speed limit for miles and there's nothing you can do about it except pressing the Accelerator down

 

[MonoPoly307]

Thanks for your thoughts. Much appreciated.
I guess I will find out soon enough how that aspect goes in Australia. I’ll bet there are plenty of speed data inaccuracies here too.

Keen to hear from anyone else about experiences with autopilot and braking!

 

[TresLA]

We have a 2018 Model 3 with radar hardware that was disabled in Fall 2021. We also have a 2022 Model 3 without radar hardware. Phantom braking happened infrequently before with radar, and it happens on vision-only infrequently as well. It’s never been that big of a deal for us. Just like many different things about Teslas, it was a shock to initially experience but eventually learned to understand and predict the car’s behavior better.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Our 2018 Model 3 running FSD Beta v10 hasn’t had issues with phantom braking or lack of braking. The car has radar hardware but the software doesn’t use it. Same for my 2018 Model S.

 

[BobbyTables]

To me, the radar phantom breaking was more predictable than the vision only breaking. With radar, if there was a side street or overpass with a moving vehicle, I'd phantom break every time, so I'd know when to shield the accelerator. With vision, breaking seems to occur when the car is uncertain about the velocity of other cars, which can occur when the cameras are dirty, when there is sun glare, when cars look different, on curves, and whenever the car decides.

On 2 lane highways the radar autopilot was much much better than the vision-only autopilot and adaptive cruise. I get phantom breaking often enough with adaptive cruise on undivided highways that it isn't worth engaging; I'd rather have almost any other TACC or basic CC system than vision-only on undivided highways.

 

[Altes]

Hey guys

I'm taking delivery of my new Model 3 on Friday... but I've been a bit spooked reading various articles about the removal of radar in 2021 (2022 in our market - Australia), and the deactivation of radars on cars which do have them.

I've had a Mazda CX-5 until now, and while the auto cruise control is a little laggy and clunky, it has proved to be rock-solid stopping when it should, and really hasn't displayed any phantom braking behaviour either.

Early reports of Vision-camera only Autopilot performing really poorly, and an increase in phantom braking, worries me a little. Especially in rain or on dark nights - when my CX-5's radar was still flawless.

Keen to hear from anyone about their experience over the last 18 months (or even newer owners coming from other brands), and whether there's been solid improvement in Basic Autopilot's performance. Have there been situations or locations which have caused it to perform badly a while back, but which have improved with recent software versions?

I'd love to have some confidence that I can trust Autopilot to make good choices, and importantly not to jam the brakes on for no reason on a freeway.

Thanks everyone! Hope to be joining you all as a Tesla owner very soon.

Cheers
Mike

No

 

[JohnB007]

For me, I got in when radar was already disabled. And initially, it was awful. Now, it's not even close.

I think the best approach is to take FSD as a software that is being improved. If you plan to own your car for years, you can expect some improvements.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Vision only has been OK for me.
The biggest problem is not Tesla vision but the lack of maintenance and correction of wrong speed limits. it seems to catch the speed limits of the roads next to it and suddenly slows down . it can also have the wrong speed limit for miles and there's nothing you can do about it except pressing the Accelerator down

I run into this problem frequently as well. I have updated Google Maps and that seems to help. Here is a link to their Q&A page for how to update different things.

Report data or content errors on Google Maps - Google Maps Help

This article can help you find solutions to errors you may encounter in Maps. Important: You can only help us correct an error in Maps in some countries and regions. Add or edit information about pl

support.google.com

As far as when Tesla Vision picks up a different speed sign... yeah. That can be an issue and I find that in some cases traveling in the left lane rather than right fixes it.

GL with your purchase!

 

[KArnold]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. You are getting your car and it will do what it does. I have a legacy MS with radar hardware although it's been long deactivated. I have an unexplainable PB of > 20 MPH perhaps once a month or two and it's no big deal. I've had a couple of others where it seemed to mistakenly picked up a much slower speed limit for some reason. Others seem to have it quite a bit more to the point it's unusable.

Someone mentioned that perhaps it has to do with mirages. I have no idea about that but in my area of the world those are also rare due to hills, weather, etc. So as to what extent it happens from one person to another is quite a mystery.

I suspect this is a high priority for Tesla and would hope those that get it frequently will see improvement down the road. Until then, it quickly becomes "muscle memory" to recognize/react to the situations by pressing the electron pedal. But it is quite a jarring experience, especially for passengers, when it does happen. Being potentially prepared goes a long way for ride comfort.

 

[Yeahnah…….]

I had my tesla for 1 year(vision only) and found autopilot has improved thru software updates it is a work in progress.I have had phantom braking on a few occasions but have learnt by feathering the accelerator with my foot i am able to negate any braking which may occur from time to time.Spending time in the saddle driving the vehicle u learn it intricacies habits wots good wots not so good,wot works wot doesnt its far from perfect but is improving

 

[skshimer]

my 2020 MS (version:2023.6.8) had radar and vision. On the Interstate highways using Autopilot or Active Cruise Control I do not see any noticeable difference. ACC on two lane roads with shadows from trees is a very different story. Today, driving at 50mph on a 50 mph road I came around a turn into shadows and the car quickly slowed to 10 mph, stayed at that speed for 5-10 seconds, and then accelerated back to speed. This is very common now on shaded two lane roads here in Massachusetts. Virtually worthless, and very dangerous, on two lane roads.
Version 2023.6.8

 

[Mojito]

Last week i had a trip on the highway going 70plus had a few hard brakes also on another trip on the Florida turnpike the car on the right lane kept wanting to get to the left lane with no traffic ahead or on coming merger and nothing on the display made no sense.

 

[betit]

Someone mentioned that perhaps it has to do with mirages. I have no idea about that but in my area of the world those are also rare due to hills, weather, etc. So as to what extent it happens from one person to another is quite a mystery.

I just went on a 2000 mile road trip. I think as far as phantom braking we experienced it once and the first thing I noticed in the road was a sort of mirage/heat puddle. It does seem to slow heavily when going over a hill where it can't vividly see where the road goes. On a previous road trip my friend was driving and it happened so I have no idea as I was awakened from a nap in slight terror but also immediately knew what happened.

So far I'd say I've experienced 1instance per 20-30 hours of using it. I just generally keep my foot slightly resting on the accelerator in the cases. Never really had an instance of it not breaking when it needed to so I'm comfortable with this.

 

[Rocket_man]

my 2020 MS (version:2023.6.8) had radar and vision. On the Interstate highways using Autopilot or Active Cruise Control I do not see any noticeable difference. ACC on two lane roads with shadows from trees is a very different story. Today, driving at 50mph on a 50 mph road I came around a turn into shadows and the car quickly slowed to 10 mph, stayed at that speed for 5-10 seconds, and then accelerated back to speed. This is very common now on shaded two lane roads here in Massachusetts. Virtually worthless, and very dangerous, on two lane roads.
Version 2023.6.8

So do you mean the car slowed 40 mph from 50mph down to 10 mph? Or that it slowed 'by' 10 mph from 50 to 40? I don't think I'd allow my car to slow to 10 mph on a 50 mph road.

When I first got my Model 3 (no radar) I had a few phantom braking events. It slowed the car down by less than 10 mph. I had my foot resting on the accelerator and could override it. It seemed to happen when the car came up on shadows on the road like from signs across the highway. I only use Auto pilot on the highway and I don't drive on the highway that often. But on my last highway trip I didn't have any phantom braking. So I think they have been improving the phantom braking. But when using Autopilot I still leave my foot near or on the accelerator and my hand on the wheel just in case.

 

[skshimer]

Nobody was behind me so I let the car do what it wanted to do. It slowed to 10 mph. I have tried this many times on a shaded two lane 40 mph road leading to my home. Phantom breaking occurs frequently, once or twice, in a two mile stretch of road. Speed decreases have been 10-25 mph. Fewer episodes of phantom braking on cloudy days and virtually no episodes on night drives. I only use TACC when nobody is behind me.

The Autopilot on Interstate highways works well and I use it every weekend in the winter as I drive to Maine for skiing.

FYI. I have used TACC in my wife’s Audi A5 on these same roads with no problems (as in never phantom brakes.)

 

[emmz0r]

Nobody was behind me so I let the car do what it wanted to do. It slowed to 10 mph. I have tried this many times on a shaded two lane 40 mph road leading to my home. Phantom breaking occurs frequently, once or twice, in a two mile stretch of road. Speed decreases have been 10-25 mph. Fewer episodes of phantom braking on cloudy days and virtually no episodes on night drives. I only use TACC when nobody is behind me.

The Autopilot on Interstate highways works well and I use it every weekend in the winter as I drive to Maine for skiing.

FYI. I have used TACC in my wife’s Audi A5 on these same roads with no problems (as in never phantom brakes.)

Was the posted speed limit 40 mph at all times?

 

[mspohr]

For two lane roads, it would be useful if it would read the yellow curve caution speed signs (in the US, don't know the equivalent for Australia). These give conservative speeds to travel through a curve (and this speed is less than the posted speed limit).
It does not seem to read or obey these signs and as a result tries to go too fast around corners and tends to run out of its lane.

 

[skshimer]

I use the posted speed limit to give the TACC a fair test. My first post was on a 50 mph road. The second post is on a road that is 40 mph for the 2 miles that I drive on it. Just today, the car braked from 40 to 27 mph, accelerated to 32 mph and the braked to 25 mph before resuming full speed. TACC has a very difficult time with shadows. It is very unpredictable. It stops at different places on the road.
Elon made the decision to go forward with vision only so as to eliminate the cost Of installing radar. The increases in phantom braking and possibly accidents was predicted by his engineering team.

 

[beatle]

I bought my 2019 after its radar had been rendered inoperative so I can't compare the latest system to AP1, but the original AP1 system with radar was great.

Rain isn't really a problem with the newer systems, even heavy rain. It is actually very good at tracking the lane markers, it will just make you motion sick if you let it drive in stop and go traffic.