Greenercars.org still hates Tesla

[chickensevil]

I could use some help tracking down WHO to contact at LEED that would have any direction in this. Not really Tesla's ball, since I don't know what they can do about it. The only play they have would be that they are likely to try to LEED certify their battery factory.

I also need to remember to try to reach back out to my parking office to try to figure out who my complaint needs to be directed to in that front. The regular office workers have been of little help regarding this since their impression is that they just follow the list and "sometimes new cars just aren't on their list" which sounds like an uninformed, canned response while trying to be polite about it.

 

[evme]

I could use some help tracking down WHO to contact at LEED that would have any direction in this. Not really Tesla's ball, since I don't know what they can do about it. The only play they have would be that they are likely to try to LEED certify their battery factory.

I also need to remember to try to reach back out to my parking office to try to figure out who my complaint needs to be directed to in that front. The regular office workers have been of little help regarding this since their impression is that they just follow the list and "sometimes new cars just aren't on their list" which sounds like an uninformed, canned response while trying to be polite about it.

LEED does have contact us:

Contact | U.S. Green Building Council

And I think it is important that Tesla is aware of this issue, you never know what connections they have to get something done.


Ok, I found their methodology. They are using GREET 2.7.

 

[artsci]

Shruti Vaidyanathan is the person who does the analysis. Here's some background information on her:

Shruti Vaidyanathan is the principal analyst for ACEEE’s Green Book Online, a comprehensive environmental ranking of consumer vehicles. Her recent work has also focused on transportation policy at the state and regional level, including the analysis of policy options for the states of New Mexico and North Carolina. She joined ACEEE in 2007.
Shruti earned a Bachelor of Arts in Economics with a minor in Environmental Studies from Grinnell College and a Master of Science in Public Policy and Management from Carnegie Mellon University.

These hardly seem like proper credentials and experience for this kind of technical analysis. I was expecting an engineer or physicist. Instead what we have is a public policy guru. I would argue that people like this are the reason that so much of our public policy is completely FUBAR and why this rating of cars is just crap (like so much public policy)

 

[Gizmotoy]

Shruti Vaidyanathan is the person who does the analysis. Here's some background information on her:

Shruti Vaidyanathan is the principal analyst for ACEEE’s Green Book Online, a comprehensive environmental ranking of consumer vehicles. Her recent work has also focused on transportation policy at the state and regional level, including the analysis of policy options for the states of New Mexico and North Carolina. She joined ACEEE in 2007.
Shruti earned a Bachelor of Arts in Economics with a minor in Environmental Studies from Grinnell College and a Master of Science in Public Policy and Management from Carnegie Mellon University.

These hardly seem like proper credentials and experience for this kind of technical analysis. I was expecting an engineer or physicist. Instead what we have is a public policy guru. I would argue that people like this are the reason that so much of our public policy is completely FUBAR and why this rating of cars is just crap (like so much public policy)

It sounds like the rating is basically looking up a bunch of values, plugging them into an algorithm, and getting a number spat out. Probably just about anyone can handle that. It may be that the algorithm was developed originally by someone with the proper credentials, and Vaidyanathan just maintains it. Could also explain why we're in this predicament: the algorithm used to produce realistic numbers, but new and outside-the-norm data like an unusually heavy car produces an unexpectedly poor outcome, and the organization doesn't have the knowledge (or care) to appropriately update the algorithm to handle this new situation.

Pessimistically, though, you're probably right.

 

[Red Sage]

This is why I'm happy the National Points Shaving League (NCAA) is finally moving to a playoff system for their football championships...

;-)

 

[chickensevil]

Well, I sent a rather lengthy email to [email protected] and CC'd [email protected] and [email protected]

I figured it was only fair to cc the people I am complaining about and then also that will make Tesla aware as suggested. For kicks here is what I sent:

I have attempted contact on at least 2 occasions to ACEEE to address my concerns about their "algorithm" which is supposed to calculate how "green" a car is, with 40 or above being considered a "green vehicle"

See greenercars.org for their publications


The biggest issue with their algorithm is that it puts of lot of value in the weight of a car which seems to translate into a poor score for, say, a 4700lb Tesla Model S (I believe it has a score of 38) and a pretty decent score of 40 for cars like this:

Year	Make	Model	City	Hwy	Score
2014	Porche	Boxster	21	30	40
2012	Ford	Mustang	19	31	40
2014	Chrysler	200	20	31	40
2011	Lotus	Elise	20	26	40
2014	Acura	TSX	21	29	40

Please explain to me, how these cars are even remotely green? And to say that they are better than an all electric vehicle? Yes, weight does affect how well a car performs in many aspects. If you notice, the EPA even ends up giving a lower MPGe value to, for example, the Model S, over a Nissan Leaf. But I don't understand the rating being so low, when so many other organizations have come out and given it high praise including:

• achieves >89eMPG fully electric,
• won the 2013 World Green Car of the Year award,
• tops the 2014 AAA Green Car #1 spot,
• won the 2014 The International Engine of the Year Award in Green Engine category,
• won Time Magazine Best 25 Inventions of the Year 2012 award,
• is manufactured by Tesla Motors which received the Environmental Leadership Award from Global Green USA,
• and was the first electric car to top the monthly new car sales ranking in any country

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT]
Here is my issue, and why I am contacting LEED. My building, which is LEED certified is using the ACEEE published list to determine who gets parking access in my building. I am very displeased that it is almost impossible for me, driving an unarguably green car, to get parking.

To make matters worse, Shruti Vaidyanathan is the person who does the analysis. When you look at her profile from the company, I would expect her to be a scientist of some sort... what is her background? "Her recent work has also focused on transportation policy at the state and regional level, including the analysis of policy options for the states of New Mexico and North Carolina... Shruti earned a Bachelor of Arts in Economics with a minor in Environmental Studies from Grinnell College and a Master of Science in Public Policy and Management from Carnegie Mellon University."


These hardly seem like proper credentials to be identifying how good or bad something is for the environment.

Thank you for your time, and I hope that this gets resolved. There are plenty of cars on that list that should be dropped off, and there are likely other cars that should get moved up higher.

 

[bollar]

Model S is in the database now: greenercars.org

TESLA MODEL S (85 kWh) (ZEV / Bin 1)
This model is ranked Below Average in the 'Small Wagons' class. With a Green Score of 37, this vehicle has an Above Average score relative to all cars and trucks for the model year.

Make/Model:	TESLA MODEL S (85 kWh)
Model Year:	2014
Emission Standard:	ZEV / Bin 1
Green Score:	37
Vehicle Class:	Small Wagons
Class Ranking:	Below Average
Engine:	1.0 Liter 1-Cylinder
Drivetrain:	Automatic, Rwd
Fuel Type:	Battery Electric
City Mileage:	3 MPG
Highway Mileage:	3 MPG
Fuel Cost:	$ 620 per year
Health Cost:	$ 170 per year
Greenhouse Gas Emissions:	6 tons/year (Tons of CO[SUB][SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE][/SUB] and other greenhouse gases emitted)
Environmental Damage Index:	2.04 ¢/mile

 

[flashflood]

Wow.

They listed the Model S as a 1-liter engine that gets 3 MPG with an automatic transmission.

Their website barely works and looks like something designed by a 12-year-old in 1998.

With that one page alone, they've proven themselves incompetent in multiple dimensions.

Why would anyone care what these idiots think? They're a bad joke. Just ignore them.

 

[techmaven]

I would bet they way over-estimated the production GHG emissions. There have been a number of bogus research publications lately that have grossly over-estimated the cost of lithium ion and EV power train production GHG emissions. Tesla should really put out a proper environmental impact statement.

 

[richkae]

The Nissan Leaf is rated at 114 MPGe by the EPA, and the Tesla Model S is 95 - a difference of 20%.
The greenercars.org people say that the Tesla uses 30% more electricity and generates 50% more CO2 per year, what the Tesla uses dirtier electricity?
Somehow the Leaf gets a score of 55 and the Model S gets a 37.

How about other similar size cars that beat the Model S on their green score?
The BMW 535 XDRIVE which they say emits 9 tons of CO2 per year ( 50% more than they claim for the Model S ) gets a 40
The A7 quattro which they say also emits 9 tons of CO2 per year gets a 40
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque also emits 9 tons of CO2 per year gets a 40
The Audi A8L 3L 6cyl ( 9 tons per year ) gets a 38

Lastly, the Panamera S Hybrid does not beat the Model S score of 37, it only gets a 36, but they claim it only emits 4 tons of CO2 per year.
There is no possible way that the Panamera produces less CO2 than the Tesla Model S, when it uses 520 wh/mile on electricity and 25mpg when running on gasoline ( EPA ).

They are totally broken.

 

[flashflood]

They don't deserve to be argued with. Writing that the Model S has a 1-liter engine is, to quote Wolfgang Pauli, not even wrong.

Not even wrong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's no point trying to correct every self-beclowning website. You'll just end up being this guy:

Pete Brown: Someone is wrong on the internet.

 

[Mayhemm]

Why would anyone care what these idiots think? They're a bad joke. Just ignore them.

Did you even read the purpose for this thread?

It's not just so we can goggle and say "look how ^&**ed up these tools are!". chickenisevil's building uses these fools' ratings to grant parking access.

 

[chickensevil]

Did you even read the purpose for this thread?

It's not just so we can goggle and say "look how ^&**ed up these tools are!". chickenisevil's building uses these fools' ratings to grant parking access.

+1 I wouldn't care at all if it didn't actually impact anything... Unfortunately *someone* takes them seriously, which makes me very sad

After sending my emails to LEED and Greener Cars they have both gone unanswered. I am not really sure how to take it to the next level at this point. Since the people who manage assigning the parking aren't paid enough to care how accurate or inaccurate the list is and I can't seem to make any serious headway with it. It would help if I had more pull where I work, but I am a very low man on the totem pole...

 

[bollar]

I would think a good place to start would be understanding GREET. GREET 2.7 is from 2010 and has been superseded. GREET 2 2012 rev1 is current: Argonne GREET Model

 

[dsm363]

Their website is broken but finally found a number to call. Ask for Greencars.org
(202) 507-4000

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Small Wagons

What the hell?

 

[Gizmotoy]

What the hell?

Basically the only field on that page that is 100% accurate is the name of the car. :biggrin:

 

[richkae]

They don't have a way to list an electric motor in their database. It is not necessarily a fatal flaw. Their page for the Leaf:

NISSAN LEAF (ZEV / Bin 1)
This model is ranked Superior in the 'Midsize Cars' class. With a Green Score of 55, this vehicle has an Above Average score relative to all cars and trucks for the model year.

Make/Model: NISSAN LEAF
Model Year: 2014
Emission Standard:† ZEV / Bin 1
Green Score:† 55
Vehicle Class: Midsize Cars
Class Ranking:† Superior
Engine: 1.0 Liter 1-Cylinder
Drivetrain: Automatic, Fwd
Fuel Type: Battery Electric
City Mileage: 4 MPG
Highway Mileage: 3 MPG
Fuel Cost: $ 480 per year
Health Cost: $ 80 per year
Greenhouse Gas Emissions: 4 tons/year (Tons of CO2 and other greenhouse gases emitted)
Environmental Damage Index: 1.19 ¢/mile

Read my previous post. It lists multiple cars that they give a better score than the Tesla Model S, but can not possibly be more green.
I think their data or methodology is flawed and this is proof -from their page for the Panamera, which inexplicably gets the same score as the Model S:

PORSCHE PANAMERA S E-HYBRID (ULEV II)
This model is ranked Average in the 'Large Cars' class. With a Green Score of 37, this vehicle has an Above Average score relative to all cars and trucks for the model year.

Make/Model: PORSCHE PANAMERA S E-HYBRID
Model Year: 2014
Emission Standard:† ULEV II
Green Score:† 37
Vehicle Class: Large Cars
Class Ranking:† Average
Engine: 3.0 Liter 6-Cylinder
Drivetrain: Automatic, Rwd
Fuel Type: Battery Electric
City Mileage: 40 MPG
Highway Mileage: 56 MPG
Fuel Cost: $ 330 per year
Health Cost: $ 100 per year
Greenhouse Gas Emissions: 4 tons/year (Tons of CO2 and other greenhouse gases emitted)
Environmental Damage Index: 2.09 ¢/mile

Keep looking for obviously broken data like that and then challenge them on it.

 

[chickensevil]

I tried challenging them on their data previously. I pointed out a bunch of flawed cars on their list which scored a 40 but got gas mileage on the order of less than 20MPG. Which made absolutely no sense to me. I have yet to receive a response to my emails. I don't know that having more flawed data will really help anything.

But I do appreciate you all pointing out the other flaws in their data because this is really, really, bad.

 

[Gizmotoy]

They don't have a way to list an electric motor in their database. It is not necessarily a fatal flaw. Their page for the Leaf:

It cracks me up the Leaf is a midsize and the Model S is a small wagon.

I see its MPG is messed up too, so that makes sense. They need to work on their DB.

I feel bad for chicken that anyone is using this garbage.