German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

[Yggdrasill]

As a side... They could stick the CCS connectors on there and then make them only work with Tesla cars. I mean we know there is a handshake that happens with the car. I haven't read the whole thing (mostly because google translate misses a few nuances that a reap translation would be better at) but assuming it just says that it has to have the CCS connector and nothing else then they could throw the connectors on there and then they still won't work with any other car. Aren't the Superchargers using the same type 2 plug as everything else Tesla charging in EU? So I mean, what is stopping someone with a Type 2 plug from currently trying to plug in to a Supercharger? Seems like the only issue is that CCS connectors would be there giant aweful plugs that would mess up the design of the car if they have to swap the port out in the future...

Tesla has it's own variant of the Type 2 connector, so I don't believe it's possible to actually mate the Supercharger connector with a Type 2-equipped car like the VW e-Golf. I think it will *almost* fit, but the keying on the connector is slightly different.

On a related note, what I think Tesla should do is change the charge port on the cars they sell in the EU from the Tesla Type 2 to a Tesla Type 2 plus the two DC pins, resulting in a Tesla CCS variant. This would enable the cars to charge at regular Type 2, the current Superchargers, and all the CCS stations. This would eliminate any need for the CHAdeMO adapter or a CCS adapter. This is on the car-side, though; on the Supercharger-side, Tesla is best served with sticking with the Tesla Type 2, at least for a decade or two. Long term, you could see Tesla start to replace the Tesla Type 2 with a Tesla high-power CCS (200-300 kW). In such a situation the two extra DC pins would come in handy.

 

[Panu]

I really can't see how this can be legal. As long as the chargers are:
* Privately financed - no support or subsidy from the state, country or EU.
* Is on private or leased land, not owned by the state, country or EU.
* Do not charge money for the electricity. The *access* to the chargers are prepaid, and no one pays for the power used.
I don't see that they have any rights to make demands like this.

But, it would possibly not be the first time someone makes an illegal law. Yes, not even in Germany - Yes, not even in Germany based on a directive from the European Union (Data Retention Directive)

My experience is that EU parlament tries its best to kill all business activity in Europe. Requiring "non-discriminatory access" sounds very typical from them. Any law referred as "non-discriminatory" will be widely supported by almost everyone including the supreme court or whatever who decides whether a law is against constitution or not.

Of course Elon has said that they are willing to share superchargers with others but I would imagine that in his plan the non Tesla owners would pay a bit more. In my opinion that would be fair.

 

[Yggdrasill]

What's the cost for?

Short version: nothing.
Long version: Bureaucracy. To certify that they meet the requirements listed in § 4

I can sort of see the need for some certification on charging stations where you pay per kWh or for a period of time. You have the same thing on gas pumps, they need to be calibrated and certified regularly to ensure that the customer actually recieves what is being paid for. But that's hardly relevant for unmetered Type 2 or superchargers.

 

[kbrandes]

OK, that's fine. 2500 one time fee just as everyone else already pays. I don't see a problem there.

Tesla can take more money as a one time fee for new car sales, bundled with the Tesla. At say 5000. This makes it possible to take 5000 from non Tesla owners in "non-discriminatory access" ;-)

- - - Updated - - -

On a related note, what I think Tesla should do is change the charge port on the cars they sell in the EU from the Tesla Type 2 to a Tesla Type 2 plus the two DC pins, resulting in a Tesla CCS variant.

It should fit existing cars. Tesla has to redesign the left backlight with the charge port . It would not be good only to fit this to new cars. There must be the usability to retrofit the existing cars.

 

[Yggdrasill]

It should fit existing cars. Tesla has to redesign the left backlight with the charge port . It would not be good only to fit this to new cars. There must be the usability to retrofit the existing cars.

Retrofitability isn't that important as long as the Superchargers aren't changed. Just offer a CCS adapter to Tesla Type 2 and current owners would have pretty much the same versatility. Albeit with a bit more fuss.

 

[kbrandes]

Retrofitability isn't that important as long as the Superchargers aren't changed. Just offer a CCS adapter to Tesla Type 2 and current owners would have pretty much the same versatility. Albeit with a bit more fuss.

when there is an adapter for existing cars, everything would be fine.

I think it is cheaper to redesign the backlight. It should be simple and you get one solution for existing and new build cars, instead of designing two. It would be better for Tesla to keep it simple and only one way ist easier.

Adapter for all cars or CCS port in old and new cars.

It is important to tell everybody at Tesla we need CCS for existing cars in Europe and SC!!

 

[renim]

As I understand the German bill
each geographically publicly accessible DC charging post, must have
a) EU Combo plug
b) non-discriminatory billing available for general public (ie networked to 3rd partly billing system)

so yes, Tesla SC stations are to be available for blocking by small battery EVs
and if Tesla is to upgrade the power output at a supercharger post, then it also must add CCS combo plug.


I don't expect the other European countries to follow the German bill so closely, but instead allow equal number of CCS combo plugs per location (so to avoid blocking superchargers), but EU countries with significant desire to accommodate VW or BMW would find it difficult to even allow that courtesy.

the overarching EU legislation http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32014L0094&from=DE has some flexibility in it.

 

[Johan]

when there is an adapter for existing cars, everything would be fine.

I think it is cheaper to redesign the backlight. It should be simple and you get one solution for existing and new build cars, instead of designing two. It would be better for Tesla to keep it simple and only one way ist easier.

Adapter for all cars or CCS port in old and new cars.

It is important to tell everybody at Tesla we need CCS for existing cars in Europe and SC!!

I very much disagree. Tesla's use of the type 2 port for BOTH AC and DC charging is genious. Wouldn't change it for the world.

By deepening the plug/pins and using 2 for + and 2 for - during DC charge Tesla are able to safely push 135 kW through the plug.

The CCS solution is just technically inferior. I don't see why VAG/GM/all the others who are currently commited to CCS and the Frankenplug don't just follow Tesla's example and implement something identical in their cars.

Let's face it: CCS was a standard invented before there were cars on the road using it. To make that standard forced on everyone, through a bill of law, seems to me like a classic case of goverment overregulation. Let the free market work it out, for Gods sake!

 

[GSP]

CCS allows DC charging using the AC pins, instead of the two large DC pins, just like Tesla does. However, Tesla does charge at higher current than the CCS standard allows. They do this by using a proprietary version of the type 2 plug that has longer pins with more surface area.

So, I think tesla could charge other cars at their type 2 Superchargers. The cars would have to support use of the AC pins, and the Supercharger would have to be run at slower charging speeds for standard type 2 inlets. I would hope the same $2500 per car fee they charge Model S customers would be acceptable to the authorities.

GSP

 

[Johan]

CCS allows DC charging using the AC pins, instead of the two large DC pins, just like Tesla does. However, Tesla does charge at higher current than the CCS standard allows. They do this by using a proprietary version of the type 2 plug that has longer pins with more surface area.

So, I think tesla could charge other cars at their type 2 Superchargers. The cars would have to support use of the AC pins, and the Supercharger would have to be run at slower charging speeds for standard type 2 inlets. I would hope the same $2500 per car fee they charge Model S customers would be acceptable to the authorities.

GSP

You're right! So basically Tesla has improved the CCS but the consortium behind CCS are too proud to admit this. They could just incorporate Tesla's improvement in the standard, and in the process do away with the ugly and redundant DC plugs on top (Mickey Mouse ears).

 

[lolachampcar]

when you share your patients, there is no such thing as proprietary pin length........ The communication/authentication element may be proprietary, but the physical interface would seem to be open.

 

[Johan]

when you share your patients, there is no such thing as proprietary pin length........ The communication/authentication element may be proprietary, but the physical interface would seem to be open.

Agree 100% (regardless of if you share your patients, patience or patents)

 

[lolachampcar]

OMG
I just got BrianH'd on TMC!!!
I deserved it.
Thanks Johan

 

[Johan]

OMG
I just got BrianH'd on TMC!!!
I deserved it.
Thanks Johan

All in jest. But seriously, I agree with you that making the pins longer can hardly be considered patentable, even if Tesla were in to patents. DC charging at 120 kW or more through Tesla's modified type 2 plug is obviously safe: since Model S went on sale in the EU I'm 100% confident that surely at least 10-100 times as many kWhs have been charged through this connector than through the CCS connector ever. Never a case of fire, electrocution or even melted cables or connectors. So that's why the only reason I could come up with for others not embracing Tesla's improved type 2 inlet/plug is stubbornness and pride. Perhaps sprinkled with a big dose of anti-competition politics.

 

[Bipo]

Exactly the same here in Spain. The last electric normative asks for that. It was published last December 31th and it's called ITC-BT-52

 

[smac]

I might be alone here, but the CCS combi system opens up more possibilities.

Tesla could "reinforce" the 2 DC pins by making them longer for more surface contact, just like they've done with the AC side, and they could still hit the same charge rates.

Then they would still have the AC pins available and be able to use the AC side and effectively give a supercharger bay the ability to charge the second to arrive on it's internal chargers, and trip over to the SC's chargers when the first car left. Effectively this adds up to 4 more chargers to every cabinet.

If you look at the charge port on the Merc B class prototypes, it's clearly "keyed" like a Model S (unsurprising given it uses a cut down Tesla drive system), so it would seem a reasonable assumption the plan was for Mercedes to be the first non Tesla to use SC's. Why they didn't follow through commercially we can only speculate.

 

[kbrandes]

I might be alone here, but the CCS combi system opens up more possibilities.

Tesla could "reinforce" the 2 DC pins by making them longer for more surface contact, just like they've done with the AC side, and they could still hit the same charge rates.

Then they would still have the AC pins available and be able to use the AC side and effectively give a supercharger bay the ability to charge the second to arrive on it's internal chargers, and trip over to the SC's chargers when the first car left. Effectively this adds up to 4 more chargers to every cabinet.

You are not alone

I totally agree!

 

[VolkerP]

Some fellow German Tesla owners measured the type 2 like supercharger plugs and the Type 2 inlets of the EU cars.

There is no indication of geometric differences like increased pin length.

There is no nose on the SC plug to prevent it being plugged into a standard type 2 vehicle intlet. We have photographic evidence of BMW i3 users plugging in at a SC. Nothing happened, of course.

Tesla seems to enable these enormous currents just by improving the electrical, mechanical and thermal characteristics of the SC plug and the vehicle inlet.

The incumbent car makers favor the CCS plug because it keeps AC and DC lines separated within the vehicle. There is no need for a software controlled* high voltage, high current switch box. Just a contactor to route power from the DC inlet to the main battery

*) imagine a bug in this software relaying battery voltage to a non suspicient AC wall box :scared:

So CCS keeps the vehicle simple and cheap but the plug unwieldy and expensive (somebody else's problem of course). It is obvious that Tesla chose to go another route since they deploy the Fast DC network all by themselves.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Makes sense - software and protocol incompatibilities happen all the time for public standards. Would be bad if such an incompatibility blew up something in the car or the wall.

 

[stopcrazypp]

CCS is not completely stuck at 100kW (assuming 500V * 200A; the 170kW number uses a ridiculously high 850V charging voltage). Ford is pushing a change to allow 150kW using the Combo connector. If it's true Tesla was able to get just the type 2 connector to push 135kW with no change in pin length, then the Combo connector can likely push even more.

It's still worrisome how Tesla can handle this while protecting the rights of the Tesla owners whose funding help built the supercharger network. I'm all for inclusion of other manufacturers in the supercharger network, but it should be predicated on cars with the equipment to allow higher power charging (90kW minimum to meet the 60kWh Model S).

The other thing that might become an issue is "non-discriminatory" payment, and a possibility of a law similar to California that requires the stations to offer a subscription-less credit card payment option.