German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

[Rebel44]

Since it doesnt say free access, why not add those plugs, but allow charging only to EVs which have prepaid SC access (€2500 per vehicle) with no other payment options.

That way very few non-Tesla vehicles would use it.

 

[ScepticMatt]

The EU directive mandates "non-discriminatory access" so they can't charge them more than Tesla owneres.

 

[RobStark]

Tesla could charge less for the car and more for Supercharger Access for their own customers.

 

[kbrandes]

The EU directive mandates "non-discriminatory access" so they can't charge them more than Tesla owneres.

Tesla can change the worth of the included flat SC charge to a higher number, for example 5000,- or 10000,- for new car sales. Everybody can buy it for this ;-)

 

[ScepticMatt]

Here is the 13 page version with additional juicy details:
(for those who can read german/use a translator)

http://tff-forum.de/download/file.php?id=7382

If this gets past as is, seems like the death of free 3 phase charging.

Example: Cost for Tesla (including current superchargers)
€310 for the first certification and €250 for renewal every 2-3 years per supercharger stall.
Plus €22.90 per notice in administrative charges.

 

[Yggdrasill]

What's the cost for?

 

[Model 3]

What's the cost for?

Probably to keep BMW and Audi on the road... (and yes, seriously - thats is what it's looks like... )

 

[ScepticMatt]

What's the cost for?

Short version: nothing.
Long version: Bureaucracy. To certify that they meet the requirements listed in § 4

Die Kosten für die Wirtschaft, die sich aus der Anzeige des Aufbaus und der
Außerbetriebnahme von Normal- und Schnellladepunkten gemäß § 4 Absatz 1 sowie der
Anzeige des Betriebs eines Schnellladepunktes gemäß § 4 Absatz 3 ergeben, werden bis zum
Jahr 2020 voraussichtlich etwa 811 000,00 Euro betragen. Es wird davon ausgegangen, dass
sich die Kosten einer Anzeige auf jeweils maximal 22,90 Euro belaufen, was einer halben
Arbeitsstunde nach Maßgabe der durchschnittlichen Vergütung eines Arbeitnehmers in der
Energiewirtschaft entspricht.

Bei 7 000 zu errichtenden Schnellladepunkten belaufen sich die Kosten der Wirtschaft für die
Erstprüfung gemäß § 4 Absatz 2 Nummer 1 bis zum Jahr 2020 auf maximal 2 170 000,00 Euro.
Es wird davon ausgegangen, dass die Kosten für die Erstprüfung gemäß § 4 Absatz 2 Nummer
1 bei Wechselstrom-Schnellladepunkten circa 250,00 Euro pro Ladepunkt betragen werden. Bei
Gleichstrom-Schnellladepunkten wird von Kosten für eine Erstprüfung gemäß § 4 Absatz 2
Nummer 1 in Höhe von circa 310,00 Euro pro Ladepunkt ausgegangen.

Hinzu kommen Kosten für Wiederholungsprüfungen für Schnellladepunkte gemäß § 4 Absatz 2
Nummer 2. Unter Zugrundelegung eines zwei- bis dreijährigen Prüfintervalls belaufen sich die
Kosten für die Wirtschaft auf maximal 2 100 000,00 Euro. Bei WechselstromSchnelladepunkten
werden hierfür voraussichtlich Kosten in Höhe von circa 170,00 Euro pro
Ladepunkt anfallen. Die Kosten einer Wiederholungsprüfung gemäß § 4 Absatz 2 Nummer 2 für
Gleichstrom-Schnellladepunkte werden derzeit auf circa 250,00 Euro pro Ladepunkt geschätzt.
Es wird davon ausgegangen, dass die Anzahl der Schnellladepunkte gleichförmig bis zum Jahr
2020 auf 7 000 steigt, sodass pro Jahr circa 1 400 Schnellladepunkte errichtet werden.

 

[dsm363]

Since the batteries are smaller, the fill time will still be about the same as the Model S.

But a 35kWh car charging at 20kW would take longer. Also, given the short range they are much more likely to charge to 100% that a Model S going from Supercharger to Supercharger.

 

[wws]

By 2017 it appears Tesla will have already largely built out its supercharger network in Germany. So does it really matter?

I do think that Tesla will eventually need a CCS adapter - like the CHAdeMO adapter they are currently developing. Though assuming most new non-Tesla/non-dealership fast charge stations will have both CCS and CHAdeMO connections, maybe just the CHAdeMO adapter will suffice for a long time?

 

[kbrandes]

By 2017 it appears Tesla will have already largely built out its supercharger network in Germany. So does it really matter?

I do think that Tesla will eventually need a CCS adapter - like the CHAdeMO adapter they are currently developing. Though assuming most new non-Tesla/non-dealership fast charge stations will have both CCS and CHAdeMO connections, maybe just the CHAdeMO adapter will suffice for a long time?

I do not think it will be tripple chargers in Germany. Just CCS and Type 2 :-(

There is no way, we will need a CCS-Tesla Adapter :-(

 

[ScepticMatt]

By 2017 it appears Tesla will have already largely built out its supercharger network in Germany. So does it really matter?

November 2017 is the EU wide deadline.
The hearing for the german ordinance bill is this January 21 IIRC.

 

[wws]

I do not think it will be tripple chargers in Germany. Just CCS and Type 2 :-(

There is no way, we will need a CCS-Tesla Adapter :-(

Right now there looks to be about 75 CHAdeMO chargers in Germany - per the map at chademo.com. When, not if, at some point there are hundreds or even thousands of CCS chargers it would behoove Tesla to make such an adapter available. Same as the current situation in Japan with CHAdeMO.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I was wondering when the EU directive will kick in and contradict with Tesla's EU superchargers, so I guess 2017 is the date. The directive doesn't specify how you do the subscription service, so I assume in the future all Tesla has to do is have all owners have a free (or bundled with the "value" included in the car price) subscription to the chargers and then provide a CCS connector there (that will be unused).

I think Tesla will probably lobby though for some kind of exception as their network is a very special case.

 

[Phil Seastrand]

Why couldn't Tesla argue that their superchargers are private and therefore exempt. Private because only Tesla owners can use them, not just anyone.

 

[chickensevil]

The EU directive mandates "non-discriminatory access" so they can't charge them more than Tesla owneres.

OK, that's fine. 2500 one time fee just as everyone else already pays. I don't see a problem there.

Germany seems pretty covered as it is anyway... Worst case the expansion just stops. I mean I know they want to add more to the network over time... But if they are stuck with what they have then this is a decent place to be stuck, at least for a few years.

As a side... They could stick the CCS connectors on there and then make them only work with Tesla cars. I mean we know there is a handshake that happens with the car. I haven't read the whole thing (mostly because google translate misses a few nuances that a reap translation would be better at) but assuming it just says that it has to have the CCS connector and nothing else then they could throw the connectors on there and then they still won't work with any other car. Aren't the Superchargers using the same type 2 plug as everything else Tesla charging in EU? So I mean, what is stopping someone with a Type 2 plug from currently trying to plug in to a Supercharger? Seems like the only issue is that CCS connectors would be there giant aweful plugs that would mess up the design of the car if they have to swap the port out in the future...

 

[Model 3]

I really can't see how this can be legal. As long as the chargers are:
* Privately financed - no support or subsidy from the state, country or EU.
* Is on private or leased land, not owned by the state, country or EU.
* Do not charge money for the electricity. The *access* to the chargers are prepaid, and no one pays for the power used.
I don't see that they have any rights to make demands like this.

But, it would possibly not be the first time someone makes an illegal law. Yes, not even in Germany - Yes, not even in Germany based on a directive from the European Union (Data Retention Directive)

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't think the physical form factor is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is potentially having lower power cars hogging the stations. That's something the 2500 fee won't solve.

- - - Updated - - -

I really can't see how this can be legal.

Easy. They can require it as part of permitting of DC charging installations. Much like everything even on private property has to follow electrical code, it is still under the government jurisdiction to require something like this. Just like some laws that are being pushed that require all new construction building to be pre-wired for charger installation, for example. The only way around is to have a reasonable justification for exemption.

 

[WarpedOne]

I don't think the physical form factor is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is potentially having lower power cars hogging the stations. That's something the 2500 fee won't solve.

I guess it would solve it just fine: Europe Exceeds 700 CCS Chargers Installed!
Who would want to pay 2500 to go to SC if there is planty of CCSs around.

Or what am I missing here?

 

[Model 3]

Or what am I missing here?

The placements.

Most of this chargers are in or near cities, like most chargers for short-range EV's. EU have just found a way to make Tesla pay for the "supercharger network" for the BMW's and VW's in EU from the look of it...