Fukuta supply role to Tesla

[Johan]

Wow I always thought Tesla bought raw iron ore which they processed in their in-house smelting plant to make steel and then manufacture all their motor parts. Same with the copper wiring - why buy when you can own your own mine? I also heard they're buying processed aluminum without informing investors - what audacity!

 

[SebastianR]

Aside from the point that there would be nothing wrong with buying a motor somewhere else (I know it is not the case), what on earth would be wrong to get some supplies / parts from a supplier? Isn't that what suppliers are for?

I wonder where the tyres come from that Tesla puts on their cars...?

 

[Causalien]

Aside from the point that there would be nothing wrong with buying a motor somewhere else (I know it is not the case), what on earth would be wrong to get some supplies / parts from a supplier? Isn't that what suppliers are for?

I wonder where the tyres come from that Tesla puts on their cars...?

Avenger is implying that Made in Taiwan motors are sub par and that all the motor breakdown are caused by that since TSLA is importing these sub standard motors and the problems will continue to manifest in future cars. There's a long standing misconception in USA about things Made in Taiwan before China took over as the defacto crap gadget manufacturer. Before Taiwan, it was Japan. Still to this day, people will not trust the quality of anything made in Japan that is not Electornics.

But the world of manufacturing has not been the same for 50 years.

Take Italian leather for example. You can usually find two tags. One says assembled in Italay, and then sewed into one of the inside pocket is made in China. Or for those really big brand names. They have an entire village in Italy of Chinese workers working in making leather in a company run by Chinese subsidiaries, housed and fed by the same Chinese subsidiary. These ones they can proudly label them Made in Italy.

So mistake 1. Is accusing TSLA of lying and is actually not manufacturing the motors in house. Mistake 2 is assuming that motors made in Taiwan is sub par even if #1 is upheld as true.

 

[AudubonB]

Mistake 3. Horrific arithmetical skills. 46.38 metric tons = 102,250 lbs.

October 2015..... 51 tons or 101 Million lbs of Fukuta motors shipped to Tesla....described as parts
Tesla Motors, Inc. imports from Fukuta Electric Machinery Co.,Ltd | Customs Trade Data

 

[JRP3]

Here is a customs/bill of lading for 25 US tons of AC Induction motors/parts from Fukuta Yusen Logistics (Americas) Inc. imports from Yusen Logistics (Taiwan) Ltd. - Tpe | Customs Trade Data
Here is the record of 2.5 tons of Fukuta AC Induction motors to Tesla Tesla Motors, Inc. imports from Fukuta Electric Machinery Co.,Ltd | Customs Trade Data

All motors and parts come from Fukuta.....yes, I'm sure Tesla Motors assembles some in California to reassure investors, but all the motor parts come from Fukuta.

AC Induction motor (is AC for alternating current these are not used for wipers or windows or anything than drive train).
Fukuta Electric& Machinery Coltd. - Export Data And Contact

As has been said repeatedly Tesla buys motor PARTS from Fukuta. They also buy motor PARTS from SKF. Since you can't build an electric motor without bearings, and they get their bearings from SKF, by your logic, SKF builds the motors for Tesla. Further, servo motors are in fact used for things other than traction motors, as some of your own previous links have proven.

^Case in point, guys/gals.

It's a waste of time.

It's entertaining on some level :biggrin:

 

[hockeythug]

One of my goals for the year was to finally read and interpret custom and bill of lading forms.

 

[Drax7]

One of my goals for the year was to finally read and interpret custom and bill of lading forms.

what exquisite selectivity.

 

[stopcrazypp]

October 2015..... 51 tons or 101 Million lbs of Fukuta motors shipped to Tesla....described as parts
Tesla Motors, Inc. imports from Fukuta Electric Machinery Co.,Ltd | Customs Trade Data

Let's use some simple math: 46380 kg gross weight (this would include pallets, and all packaging). 2640 pcs.
46380kg/2640pcs = 17.6 kg = 39 lbs per piece (including pallets, and individual packaging).

Edit: googling it, it seems 40 ft shipping container weight is typically not included in the gross weight in bill of lading for containerized cargo; numbers adjusted to account for this.

While the motor Tesla uses is light, it is not that light. We know the Roadster's motor weighed 115 lbs.
"The Roadster is powered by a 3-Phase Alternating Current Induction Motor. Small, but strong, the motor weighs just over 115 pounds."
https://my.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology

There is no way these are assembled traction motors.

 

[ggr]

Mistake 3. Horrific arithmetical skills. 46.38 metric tons = 102,250 lbs.

Call it 100k pounds. Tesla manufactured something more than 5000 vehicles in October (also in November, in case Avenger wants to claim that the motors weren't used in October). So, by simple arithmetic, that's less than 20 lbs of motors per vehicle, most of which would have been dual motor vehicles. Even the small front traction motor weighs significantly more than 20 lbs. So the motors can't have been used for traction in anything Tesla manufactures. But there are other motors in the cars: the air suspension pumps, the electric braking systems, the liftgate, ...

[edit: different arithmetic but same conclusion as Stopcrazypp.]

 

[SebastianR]

Avenger is implying that Made in Taiwan motors are sub par [...]

So mistake 1. Is accusing TSLA of lying and is actually not manufacturing the motors in house. Mistake 2 is assuming that motors made in Taiwan is sub par even if #1 is upheld as true.

Sorry, should have used my sarcasm tags - apologies. Thanks for taking the time to respond though.

I love this thread - very entertaining

Oh and once you get there, Happy New Year everyone!

 

[Causalien]

Sorry, should have used my sarcasm tags - apologies. Thanks for taking the time to respond though.

I love this thread - very entertaining

Oh and once you get there, Happy New Year everyone!

I am having fun. Somehow, berating Avenger doesn't make me feel like an *******.

 

[techmaven]

Let's use some simple math: 46380 kg gross weight (this would include pallets, and all packaging). 2640 pcs.
46380kg/2640pcs = 17.6 kg = 39 lbs per piece (including pallets, and individual packaging).

Edit: googling it, it seems 40 ft shipping container weight is typically not included in the gross weight in bill of lading for containerized cargo; numbers adjusted to account for this.

While the motor Tesla uses is light, it is not that light. We know the Roadster's motor weighed 115 lbs.
"The Roadster is powered by a 3-Phase Alternating Current Induction Motor. Small, but strong, the motor weighs just over 115 pounds."
https://my.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology

There is no way these are assembled traction motors.

Surprising that Avenger didn't already do this math, but then again, converting to tons incorrectly might have thrown him.

2640 pcs seems to be too big of a number for factory assembly line pieces, so these are maybe actually going into vehicles. But even if you strip away about 25-50% for individual packing, we're talking 20 to 30 lbs for the motor. Definitely not a traction motor, but that's not a small motor. Maybe these are Model X falcon wing door liftgate motors? The weight seems about right for heavy duty lift gate motors.

 

[Johan]

Surprising that Avenger didn't already do this math, but then again, converting to tons incorrectly might have thrown him.

2640 pcs seems to be too big of a number for factory assembly line pieces, so these are maybe actually going into vehicles. But even if you strip away about 25-50% for individual packing, we're talking 20 to 30 lbs for the motor. Definitely not a traction motor, but that's not a small motor. Maybe these are Model X falcon wing door liftgate motors? The weight seems about right for heavy duty lift gate motors.

In fairness to mr. Avenger the custom declaration does say "AC induction motors". I don't think the liftgate motors are AC, they likely run on the 12V DC battery, right?

My guess is that in a sense mr. Avenger is correct in claiming Fukuda is s vital supplier of important parts of the Model S/X drive motors. This then begs the question: So what? Why is this important, ground breaking information for investors?

Regards.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Surprising that Avenger didn't already do this math, but then again, converting to tons incorrectly might have thrown him.

2640 pcs seems to be too big of a number for factory assembly line pieces, so these are maybe actually going into vehicles. But even if you strip away about 25-50% for individual packing, we're talking 20 to 30 lbs for the motor. Definitely not a traction motor, but that's not a small motor. Maybe these are Model X falcon wing door liftgate motors? The weight seems about right for heavy duty lift gate motors.

This one specifically says motor parts so I would assume it would be just a part of the motor. Maybe part of the stator judging from some of the other descriptions.

The other one he linked from 2015-04-07 where it actually says "AC INDUCTION SERVO MOTOR" is two units at 2566 KG gross weight. I would say those are assembly line motors.
http://portexaminer.com/trade-data/...ery-co-ltd-tesla-motors-inc/yasvnltpe0038682/

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In fairness to mr. Avenger the custom declaration does say "AC induction motors". I don't think the liftgate motors are AC, they likely run on the 12V DC battery, right?

The one he is talking about just says "motor parts" it does not say AC induction motors.
http://portexaminer.com/trade-data/...ery-co-ltd-tesla-motors-inc/yasvnltpe0044459/

 

[techmaven]

This one specifically says motor parts so I would assume it would be just a part of the motor. Maybe part of the stator judging from some of the other descriptions.

The other one he linked from 2015-04-07 where it actually says "AC INDUCTION SERVO MOTOR" is two units at 2566 KG gross weight. I would say those are assembly line motors.
http://portexaminer.com/trade-data/...ery-co-ltd-tesla-motors-inc/yasvnltpe0038682/

Ah yes, you're right. The only motors in that whole shebang for sure are these two, each of which weigh 2,828.5 pounds with packaging. Definitely not traction motors, so yeah, probably assembly line motors.

Avenger, gotta try harder.

Oh yeah... I'd love to hear the reasoning again why any of this is actual real risk to Tesla? If Fukuta can't handle the contract, Tesla will find another supplier or build it in house, as they have done in the past. It seems Fukuta is eager and willing to be an excellent supplier to Tesla.

All motors and parts come from Fukuta.....yes, I'm sure Tesla Motors assembles some in California to reassure investors, but all the motor parts come from Fukuta.

I do think we need to take a moment of silence to commemorate this admission from Avenger. Tesla Motors does assemble some!
Of course, we know that the motor bearings come from SKF, so not all the motor parts comes from Fukuta.

Avenger, what is your risk analysis of GM using LG for pretty much all the key components of the Bolt drivetrain? Is that a risk to GM that they are going to become a shell of a company, a mere marketing and sales company since all the real efforts are done by LG? Even the Gamma II platform itself was developed by Daewoo in South Korea. And Magna built all of the electric drivetrain components for the Ford Focus EV.

 

[Avenger]

SKF makes wheel bearing + gear box (transmission) bearings ....nothing to do with the AC induction motor.. go to 2.41 minutes of this video
Tesla Model S Makes Use Of SKF Ceramic Motor Bearings - Video

The gearbox was originally a Borg Warner product and I would expect BWA to use top shelf components Tesla Motors Selects BorgWarner for Production of New Gearbox for Tesla Roadster (NASDAQ:TSLA)

Tesla motors has never designed and built a motor in-house.

Copper Rotor Induction Motor: The Better Solution to Power Electric Vehicles | Copper Rotor Induction Motor

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SKF makes wheel bearing + gear box (transmission) bearings ....nothing to do with the AC induction motor.. go to 2.41 minutes of this video
Tesla Model S Makes Use Of SKF Ceramic Motor Bearings - Video

The gearbox was originally a Borg Warner product and I would expect BWA to use top shelf components Tesla Motors Selects BorgWarner for Production of New Gearbox for Tesla Roadster (NASDAQ:TSLA)

Tesla motors has never designed and built a motor in-house.

Copper Rotor Induction Motor: The Better Solution to Power Electric Vehicles | Copper Rotor Induction Motor

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Assembly line motors is not the answer... regular shipment of AC Induction motors from Fukuta

2013 Yusen Logistics (Americas) Inc. imports from Yusen Logistics (Taiwan) Ltd. - Tpe | Customs Trade Data
Jan 2014 Tesla Motors, Inc. imports from Fukuta Electric Machinery Co., | Customs Trade Data

Fukuta seems to only ship to Tesla Motors.....through the California port.... sounds pretty unique Google

 

[techmaven]

SKF makes wheel bearing + gear box (transmission) bearings ....nothing to do with the AC induction motor.. go to 2.41 minutes of this video
Tesla Model S Makes Use Of SKF Ceramic Motor Bearings - Video

First, they use the word motor many times in that video. At 2:31, the Tesla spokeperson says, "... with bearings in the gearbox and in the drive unit, transmission." The drive unit is the motor. At 3:10, the SKF spokesperson and the Tesla spokesperson talks about special ceramic bearings in the motor. There wouldn't be an arcing issue with the gearbox or wheel bearings. At 3:34, that's a shot of motor.

Tesla motors has never designed and built a motor in-house.

Copper Rotor Induction Motor: The Better Solution to Power Electric Vehicles | Copper Rotor Induction Motor

You do know that Walter Ripple worked for Tesla for some time, right? He's back at AC Propulsion now, but he was with Tesla during the development of the Model S.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors

Assembly line motors is not the answer... regular shipment of AC Induction motors from Fukuta

2013 Yusen Logistics (Americas) Inc. imports from Yusen Logistics (Taiwan) Ltd. - Tpe | Customs Trade Data
Jan 2014 Tesla Motors, Inc. imports from Fukuta Electric Machinery Co., | Customs Trade Data

Fukuta seems to only ship to Tesla Motors.....through the California port.... sounds pretty unique Google

First link is components again. As for the 2nd, do you really think that any motor near 1,283 kg would go into a car? That's more than half the curb weight of a Model S. You do know that they are still building out production facilities, right?

 

[Avenger]

Multiple motors ..... motors and parts come from Fukuta every month... some times labeled AC induction servo and always tons and tons of parts, these are key component and heavy when shipped in volume ...export data base for Fukuta from Taiwan Fukuta Electric& Machinery Coltd. - Export Data And Contact
go down to trading transactions Fukuta Electric& Machinery Coltd. - Export Data And Contact

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Multiple motors ..... motors and parts come from Fukuta every month... some times labeled AC induction servo and always tons and tons of parts, these are key component and heavy when shipped in volume ...export data base for Fukuta from Taiwan Fukuta Electric& Machinery Coltd. - Export Data And Contact
go down to trading transactions Fukuta Electric& Machinery Coltd. - Export Data And Contact

 

[dha]

Motors for mirrors, retracting door handles, power windows, sunroof, auto-opening doors and falcon wing actuators. Tons of motors in the cars unrelated to the drivetrain. Also, do you understand exactly what a servo is?

 

[JRP3]

SKF makes wheel bearing + gear box (transmission) bearings ....nothing to do with the AC induction motor.. go to 2.41 minutes of this video
Tesla Model S Makes Use Of SKF Ceramic Motor Bearings - Video

From your linked video at the 52 second mark https://youtu.be/8X3XFDDTlIE?t=51s

Tesla and SKF have had a partnership for many years. We actually started on the Roadster program, where Tesla and SKF worked closely together to come up with a solution for a motor bearing

Then, around the 3 minute mark, they talk about the special motor bearings made from ceramic. Pretty bad when your source material proves you wrong, over and over again. Does it ever get tiring?

Tesla motors has never designed and built a motor in-house.

Except for all the drive motors in all their vehicles, which they designed and build in house.



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Multiple motors ..... motors and parts come from Fukuta every month... some times labeled AC induction servo and always tons and tons of parts,

Yes, it's almost as if Fukuta supplies parts for the motors that Tesla builds. Really, try and ponder that concept for a while.