FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Twiglett]

Yes it is crucial. That and hills.

50mph limits on residential-feeding parkways and also surface streets through commercial areas are extremely common in San Diego. People go 55-60mph.

Anyway it’s apparently very challenging for FSD v12.

This is a problem in Texas as well. We have regular roads that are up to 75mph speed limits that are not always divided and not restricted access.
This has often caused issues with all versions of FSD to date.

 

[Ramphex]

But wait, you didn't have Tmc in 2021 to discuss fsd... remember???

That’s not what I said lol. I said I wish threads like v10 and v11 existed when I got FSD in summer of 2021. Unfortunately I got FSD before the Safety Score games and before those threads started so I ended up holding a bag of junk for the last almost 3 years, until 12.3 started to show a slight glimmer of possibility of it maybe being useful one day for me.

 

[drtimhill]

Tesla turned NACS over to the SAE so it could become a standard and it is now the SAE J3400 connector.

Indeed, but it was a case of giving the official seal to something that was the de facto standard anyway. Quite apart from the more user-friendly connector (my mom would NEVER be able to lift that bulky CCS connector), Tesla had something every EV maker wanted access to .. the massive supercharger network. The SAE was more or less pressured by those makers into the J3400 standard, making CCS dead in North America.

 

[TK211X]

Man you guys are brutal. FINE I'll keep quite until I get back on the 12.3.x branch.
(I've emailed the FSDBeta team, opened a service ticket and tweeted @tesla also I mentioned it to Elon when we spoke this morning... shouldn't be long now)


I wasn't even offered one! (I also mentioned it to Elon this morning... SHAME)

No, don’t leave, I’ll be lonely.

 

[KiddFunkadelic]

I wish they'd let us drop pins for "home" somewhere in our driveway and let the car do the whole end of drive.

This would be a google maps thing. My house is down a long driveway, w/ a split near the end for one neighbor I share the driveway with. Navigating home DOES turn into my driveway. It always showed the PIN at the end of the driveway directly on the house on the nav, but turning into the driveway started sometime in the last 6 months.

Also, the PIN for my address was for the neighbor's house. I made a PIN update request via goole maps and w/in a week or two it was updated to the correct location (the car was still showing the OLD pin for navigating to the saved home address, but I realized it was updated when I navigated by street address so just deleted and re-added the saved home location)

 

[TK211X]

At a guess, they're distracted by a bunch of new priorities. Getting V12 onto demo cars, new cars, into factory builds, into Canada, implementing Elon's new trial "by the end of the week" (thanks, Elon), and so on.

I don’t mind. Crack that whip.

 

[Nakk]

Why are we still getting the disengagement notice at the end of the navigation?
They turned this off when we were close to our destination, now it's back on..
I just say, "I am home, no problems Tesla team" when I get the "What happened"
Wasted data for them to sift through.

Agreed it's a waste; I'm guessing it's because the car is trying to park and you disengage prior to that task completing. I let it park a couple of times, because it was cool to see it do that instead of just stopping in the street. Now it's just a waste of time, delaying me getting into the garage.

 

[swedge]

Then what does "F" in FSD stand for? Supervised Full Self Driving is an oxymoron, isn't it?

No.

You are conflating FSD with fully autonomous driving and also with robo-taxi.

FSD is only just the name of the product. Nowhere in Tesla's literature or filings do they say FSD means fully autonomous driving.

On the other hand, FSD does control speed and steering, just as "fully driving" as a teenage student driver who also requires constant supervision. So your concern that it is not fully autonomous is somewhere past nit-picking, more like picking a counter-factual straw man just for the sake of arguing.

The confusion between these two terms is a hobby horse of Tesla critics. Please see my earlier comment on Garpenuts. (Coincidentally that cereal is made by Post, which is an interesting double entrendre given the context these social media posts.)

 

[lzolman]

This would be a google maps thing. My house is down a long driveway, w/ a split near the end for one neighbor I share the driveway with. Navigating home DOES turn into my driveway. It always showed the PIN at the end of the driveway directly on the house on the nav, but turning into the driveway started sometime in the last 6 months.

Also, the PIN for my address was for the neighbor's house. I made a PIN update request via goole maps and w/in a week or two it was updated to the correct location (the car was still showing the OLD pin for navigating to the saved home address, but I realized it was updated when I navigated by street address so just deleted and re-added the saved home location)

At least it navigates into your driveway. Not for me. It tries to turn down a nearby street that's just a loop with no access to the area my house is in lol.

Every. Stinkin'. Time.

So my secret wish is for a "learning the last few hundred feet" mode where it would just remember where my driveway actually is.

Sigh.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Indeed, but it was a case of giving the official seal to something that was the de facto standard anyway. Quite apart from the more user-friendly connector (my mom would NEVER be able to lift that bulky CCS connector), Tesla had something every EV maker wanted access to .. the massive supercharger network. The SAE was more or less pressured by those makers into the J3400 standard, making CCS dead in North America.

Yep, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming. Prior to Ford's decision to adopt NACS (the dominos quickly falling with GM, etc also following in short order), CCS said clearly no thank you to Tesla's suggestions of making it an official standard.

Here was Charin's press release immediately after NACS spec release announcement back in late 2022:

CharIN Response to Tesla Announcement to Open the North America Charging Standard – CharIN

Empowering the next level of e-mobility by developing and establishing the Combined Charging System (CCS) as the global standard for charging battery powered electric vehicles.

www.charin.global

They changed their tune in June 2023 after multiple manufacturers announced switching over to NACS. There's still a lot of backhanded comments in the press release, but they had no choice but to support accepting it as a standard.

CharIN Stands Behind CCS and MCS, but also supports the standardization of Tesla NACS – CharIN

Empowering the next level of e-mobility by developing and establishing the Combined Charging System (CCS) as the global standard for charging battery powered electric vehicles.

www.charin.global

 

[Mardak]

I just say, "I am home, no problems Tesla team" when I get the "What happened"

Now it's just a waste of time, delaying me getting into the garage.

Do people generally leave a message just because it asked instead of ignoring and just parking right away? I figured no message makes it lower priority or assumed nothing wrong, so spending time to leave a message probably results in even more time to process it. There are cases where 11.x and 12.x does something wrong close to the destination, e.g., turning too early, so it's useful to be able to provide that feedback instead of the old behavior of assuming the trip was completed correctly.

 

[rlsd]

Even more precise would be.. YOU park the car exactly where you want it and then let the car take an EIGHT CAMERA SNAPSHOT of exactly where it is, and then when you want to the car to park it RIGHT there again as it’s certainly using vision (and for some cars still USS) when parking it should be able to put the car back pretty precisely where it created the snapshot. Certainly more so than any GPS map pin could do.

It would certainly work better for parking in a GARAGE where the GPS signal is going to be next to zero, but certainly not accurate enough for precision parking.

I’m sure the car could figure out with a combination of USS/Vision that I like to have the front left bumper ~ 22” from the water heater, 4” from the front wall, back left rear quarter panel 34” from the washing machine (which probably means the drivers B pillar cam is 54” inches from the garage door to the kitchen, etc.

I wish Tesla has a way for us to identify the GPS location where the car is parked as a favorite location instead of using street address. I want to use that as work location so that my car go to that spot instead of wandering around the parking lots for multiple buildings.

 

[JulienW]

I wish Tesla has a way for us to identify the GPS location where the car is parked as a favorite location instead of using street address. I want to use that as work location so that my car go to that spot instead of wandering around the parking lots for multiple buildings.

I have bitched about this before. I live in a condo high rise that is in a neighborhood that is on a gigantic parking deck. While there or 8 or so public entrances I only use about 3 or 4 and of course 1 most often. I use this townhome as my "home address" to bring me to my most used entrance. I also have an address set to Favorites that gets me close to another. Also I can use the navigate to Supercharger (we have a 30 stall in the deck) for another but it does preheat the battery.

 

[AndrewZ]

Actually Tesla eventually won on appeal and you can see the current site has all the terminology returned to the original.

Tesla wins Autopilot, FSD 'misleading' marketing lawsuit in Germany

In 2020, a Munich court ruled that Tesla used misleading marketing tactics in Germany by using the words 'Autopilot' and 'Full Self-Driving' for its driver-a

www.notateslaapp.com

California made a big deal to the media about clamping down on Tesla's naming, but more than year has passed since the law came into effect and nothing has happened yet.

Tesla won an appeal to still use the “Full potential for autonomous driving” name but needed to add disclaimers and change wording etc.

There's always a tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1727484899374899687

It's funny to me that people think Elon is telling his engineers to make driver assist software when it's so obvious they're trying to make a robotaxi.

Oh Elon

 

[OxBrew]

There are 2 really big issues with FSD approaching human levels of driving. I think they are both fatal flaws.

1. Even if its actually only half as good as the average human, (so twice as dangerous), it will still crash only once every 125,000 miles. At that point, to the end user, it will be indistinguishable from a perfect driver. Threads like this will cease to exist. Most of us could wear out 2 different Teslas and never crash, and the only evidence that it was still 2x as dangerous would be buried in boring safety statistics published by alphabet soup regulators. Day to day it will feel exactly the same as perfection, yet it will be killing twice as many people as AVERAGE drivers.

2. "FSD" as a supervised driving aide has a paradox that to me is a deal killer. The assumption is that it will not be perfect, but it will help more than it hurts, and we just need to be prepared to take over if it makes a mistake.
How do we as driver monitoring determine in that split second that the slamming on the brakes is either
1) a legit action to prevent a crash from a threat we didn't see (exactly the value we are supposed to get from it)
or

2) a mistake that FSD is making that I need to over ride so I don't cause a crash? I have to have better than FSD situational awareness at all times, which negates any value FSD could logically provide.

I submit that FSD needs to be better than the best human driver ever to even be a good ADAS system.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla won an appeal to still use the “Full potential for autonomous driving” name but needed to add disclaimers and change wording etc.

Oh Elon

Nope, according to the article, the only thing they had to change is they can no longer use the "coming soon" language, they had to put an actual estimated date. But the rest of the wording remained the same as it relates to the autopilot or full self driving capability.

The disclaimers were preexisting if you look back at the archive from prior to the lawsuit:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200408120310/https://www.tesla.com/de_DE/model3/design#battery

This was what the lawsuit was trying to ban back in 2020:
"Tesla Germany is now banned from including “full potential for autonomous driving” and “Autopilot inclusive” in its advertising materials, Reuters reported."

German court rules that Tesla misled consumers on Autopilot and Full Self Driving

Tesla mislead consumers on the abilities of its automated driving systems, a Munich court ruled on Tuesday.

www.cnbc.com

Both of those returned (archive is broken for later examples, it keeps redirecting me), but the current Germany site shows "Enhanced Autopilot" and organized the features into cards but still with the "automatic driving" wording intact, for example if you look at the NoA card.

 

[j0shm1lls]

I made a PIN update request via goole maps

Huh interesting... I just sent an update request for work and home. YOUR MOVE GOOGLE.

 

[Pdubs]

Why are we still getting the disengagement notice at the end of the navigation?
They turned this off when we were close to our destination, now it's back on..
I just say, "I am home, no problems Tesla team" when I get the "What happened"
Wasted data for them to sift through.

Similar to my response. I used to cuss them out and say really mean and quite derogatory things. Now it’s, “ I’m home. Thanks for a great drive Elon!”

 

[Pdubs]

Does it work if if someone lives in a half working Tesla down by the river?

Asking for a friend...

I really miss Chris

 

[Daniel in SD]

That seems terribly inefficient. I'd be doing statistical analysis, and rely on the frequency of disengagements by location, by given reason, and by anything else available to me. Speed? Model? Time of day? If 100 drivers have disengaged while turning left between 5 and 6 pm at a given intersection, that's worth looking into. If a bunch of drivers are disengaging, it doesn't matter if Tesla considers it necessary because the people involved apparently did.

I'd love to see a disengagement heat map for my geographic area. Again, with various filters.

I’m just talking about determining the unsupervised safety. As long as a few percent of disengagements are necessary it doesn’t take very many samples to estimate unsupervised safety.
For a robotaxi it doesn’t really matter what passengers think since they can’t disengage.

Oh Elon

He’s an optimist!
If you assume that necessary disengagements drop by 50% every couple weeks then unsupervised FSD will be ready this year.