Yes. He has a video from 3 years ago that shows no wheel jitter, 0 disengagements from SF to LA, then driving in LA.
What he displays, even from videos is curated and not the case in real world testing, which is why most mock him.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd doesn't read signs properly fsd hard and late braking fsd has decision wobble fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd sometimes may not detect train crossings fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
What he displays, even from videos is curated and not the case in real world testing, which is why most mock him.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Your post, in full, is quoted here
By definition did you mean when you wrote: "It drives and takes turns without direct human control."
Which is not a definition I'm aware of as being recognized by SAE, any state or federal law, or Tesla themselves as a definition of autonomous driving.
Again, it can not. That's what Tesla literally tells you over and over
Drive means something specific. The car can not do that.
It can automate some specific sub tasks of the overall driving task.
It can not perform OTHER subtasks of that overall driving task. It requires a human to perform those (acting as the OEDR being a big one, and then taking over some of the cars subtasks as needed for safety being the other).
ONLY when the car can perform all of the subtasks of the DDT- including a complete OEDR- will the car being able to drive without a human. (and even then it'll still need one on standby until it can ALSO handle the DDT fallback task too).
Understanding the stuff, and realizing it's not simply "semantics" is fundamental to understanding where FSD actually is today and what things still need to be solved to get it above L2 ever
I call it partial driving automation.
So does the SAE.
Those systems are automating specific sub-tasks of the DDT, while lacking the ability to do all of them. Hence why the human remains the driver.
There's nuance to this conversation and you are being very black and white, which is why there's boxed in rebuttals.
It is by the definition you posted. It's moving or travelling. Which are verbs.
Hence why your definition was as dumb as the rest of your arguments in this discussion.
Ever hear the phrase "When you find yourself in a hole... stop digging?"
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You mean the feature the human has to supervise (continuing to perform the OEDR aspect of the DDT even if they're outside, but nearby, the vehicle), and that by default requires that you press and hold a button on the mobile app or the car stops moving?
No, the Oxford dictionary meaning:
denoting or performed by a device capable of operating without direct human control.
Again, you are arguing semantics and you are looking at things in an extremely polarizing point of view.
For the most part I agree with most of what you are saying as you see by my replies, but your approach is why you are getting so much push back.
This conversation is nuanced and you are spending most of the time trying to argue definitions of driving and autonomy, when you understand the context that FSD can go anywhere and Waymo cannot. That's the difference. Waymo can operate more independently in their mapped areas, but it's limited to specific areas. You keep talking past that point with "it can't drive anywhere" and it's a failing argument.
It's perfect.Anyone ever heard of FSD V12 and how it is doing or availability? SORRY this CLEARLY must be the wrong thread for V12 info.
-Whole Mars
V12? I've heard of it. It's six cylinders on each side, right? I'll bet it runs smoother than a V11 or even an inline 11.Anyone ever heard of FSD V12 and how it is doing or availability? SORRY this CLEARLY must be the wrong thread for V12 info.
They are ALL perfect to Omar.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
In terms of driving, FSD can not operate without direct human control- specifically control of the OEDR and DDT fallback tasks. For that matter they require human control to turn on in the first place- and the law makes clear whomever does that remains the actual, active, driver of the vehicle.
I'm not though. This stuff has specific technical and legal definitions for a reason
If "you need to understand what the terms actually mean to intelligently discuss the topic" is polarizing I can't really help that, it remains true- and the thread has been a great illustration of that with one dude initially insisting we should instead use a definition that concludes with "a dead body can drive a car"
This stuff has specific technical and legal definitions for a reason
Because without understanding the definitions we get completely pointless (and often factually wrong) conclusions like "FSD drives better than Waymo"
FSD can not drive at all
That is the point
Some folks who refuse to bother to educate themselves seem to think "FSD can drive and it just needs to get a little better at it and robotaxi!"
That's parsecs from factual
FSD is missing entire task abilities required to drive a car. More than one of them.
Abilities Waymos system has.
They are confusing ability to do some but not all elements of the DDT (FSD) with ability to do the ENTIRE DDT AND FALLBACK within an ODD (Waymo).
So they keep reaching nonsense conclusions when trying to "compare" two fundamentally different things.
No--- the difference is Waymo can operate independently at all
FSD can not.
There's foundational reasons why that's so- and if someone refuses to understand them all conclusions they reach without that understanding will be fundamentally flawed.
I hate it that V12 rollout has been expected for so long but has progressed so slowly that we're now fighting over some definition that has zero bearing on the capabilities of actual V12.
I need help. My wife and I argue over whether the laundry machine washes clothes or she washes them. Can anyone clarify? I'm looking for nuanced industry standards and legal definitions, not some common understanding most agree on. After that's solved, I need to address whether my oven bakes dinner or me.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You don't think understanding what the elements of the driving task are, and thus which parts of the driving task the system can and can not actually do has any bearing on the capabilities of the system?
(especially for cases as the other poster was attempting- in comparing it to other systems)
It does not matter to me whether Waymo is better than Tesla. I care of what exactly each system is capable, on which the definition of anything has zero impact.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Ok, but that's what much of the discussion was about.
That's fundamentally untrue-- if you don't understand what any of the terms used to describe capabilities are you can not understand what the capabilities (and maybe more important- the limitations) are- or even worse if you're in a discussion where people trying to talk about those capabilities are all making up their own, incompatible, definitions, you're going to have an even harder time finding any productive conversation.
See again the guy who kept insisting his tesla could drive itself around the block. It can't. If you don't understand what driving actually involves, and why the Tesla can't do that, you're in for a bad time trying to discuss those things.
Likewise if you don't understand what an ODD is you're gonna have a bad time trying to intelligently discuss the capabilities of Waymos offering- which CAN drive itself, but only when its in its ODD.
Well that's easy - she's washing them, and she's cooking dinner. The way we know that's true is simple: tell your wife she didn't do any chores, the machines did them all. See how fast you're apologizing with flowers/candy/jewelry/etc.
So been there done that. Said the same about “I did the dishes” when technically she only loaded a box. Didn’t go well.Well that's easy - she's washing them, and she's cooking dinner. The way we know that's true is simple: tell your wife she didn't do any chores, the machines did them all. See how fast you're apologizing with flowers/candy/jewelry/etc.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If I could have enlightenment rather than ignorance simply by preferring it, repeatedly or otherwise, I'd be good.
Sorry to waste this bandwidth, but the last 5 pages or so have the distinct feel to me of an extended discussion about what the meaning of "is" is...
