They absolutely do.
If we are just going by feelings and nothing technical, that's a different conversation, but those have substantial value in a legitimate, intelligent conversation about autonomy.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd doesn't read signs properly fsd hard and late braking fsd has decision wobble fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd sometimes may not detect train crossings fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
If we are just going by feelings and nothing technical, that's a different conversation, but those have substantial value in a legitimate, intelligent conversation about autonomy.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I mean, you posted about Tesla being L2.
Then when it was pointed out you were wrong about your claims in that post your reply was to insist you never mentioned SAE levels and they're dumb.
But they really CAN NOT be compared any more than say dumb cruise control can be "compared" to a human chauffeur. Just because one does something similar to a sub-task of another thing doesn't provide especially useful comparison.
You can potentially discuss the design goals of some future self driving system from Tesla to the already-existing self driving system Waymo has.
But since you keep making clear you don't understand what self driving even is it'd be hard for you to cogently do so.
*whistle*
FLAG ON THE PLAY! STRAWMAN BEING BUILT!
Another thing literally nobody said.
Clearly since you can't engage in any actual substantive debate you've got to invent your own imaginary things to argue about.
In self driving terms? Yes. Exactly correct.
The fact you're saying it sarcastically reinforces you still don't understand what an OEDR is and why it's so critical to being capable of any autonomous driving.
Again the Forbes link goes into this without needing to read all of J3016 since apparently 40 pages is too much reading for you.
Neither, of course, can your Tesla- since, according to even Tesla, it's not capable of driving itself at all
The Waymo CAN drive itself in areas with millions of people living there in contrast, even if it's nowhere close to where you live.
powertoold
Active Member
We already know that FSDb is not driverless.
But we can still say FSDb is driving better than Waymo does (our opinion). We aren't required to invoke the SAE levels in everything we say, unlike what you're doing. I posted the definition of "drive" for you. You or the SAE don't own the definition of "drive."
Basically all you've been saying for the last 3 pages or whatever is that FSDb isn't driverless. We know that.
Okay - we're done using "driverless" - no more use of that word here please. Use the word "autonomous", which is the correct word to use in this context, and the word Tesla uses in their documentation.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You literally can't
"It can't do this thing but it does that thing better than another company" is a nonsense statement.
Even if you just change it to "operating at all, whatever it's doing" the interventions per mile data do not, even remotely, support your claim.
But since the two systems are doing fundamentally different things, comparing which is "better" at a thing only one of them even does makes no sense in the first place.
And which Tesla acknowledges FSD is not
I think this is the key thing your opinion, but search shows that it's the first time you've used that qualifier.
Waymo is incredibly primitive compared to V12, that's the real answer
It's basically a micromanaged train
These don't seem like opinions. They seem like statements...statements based on Whole Mars, who has videos from V9 (pre-version 10) showing intervention free drives, videos from V10 saying it's solved and it looks so smooth.
If you trust his videos...you're gullible.
Just wait.
V12 could come out in a month and be 5 steps better than V11, but that won't be better than Waymo is currently. It could also regress greatly in many areas. You hand picked some odd examples of Waymo acting strange, when that's a daily common occurrence for FSD.
To this...I get trying to pick an extreme angle to feel the need to pull your opposition closer to the middle, but we all understand FSD performs autonomous actions. That's the conversation here. It drives and takes turns without direct human control.
powertoold
Active Member
I can make this statement based on the English definition:
"FSDb can drive in more locations than Waymo," where "drive" is defined as:
drive
verb
drive verb (USE VEHICLE)
to move or travel on land in a motor vehicle, especially as the person controlling the vehicle's movement:
drive
1. to move or travel on land in a motor vehicle, especially as the person…
dictionary.cambridge.org
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Since software is not a person, it can not drive
See how dumb using the dictionary for this is?
For that matter go back to the 1973 pinto with a rope tying off the steering wheel and a brick on the gas pedal... are the rope and brick "driving"? Of course not.
It literally does not though.
Autonomous has a specific meaning. It's exclusively reserved for L3 and higher (though J3016 considers the term depreciated by now and uses more exact language anymore). Which is why Tesla explicitly tells you their stuff is NOT autonomous, period.
What L2 systems do is called partial driving automation. Specific sub-parts of the driving task are automated, leaving the human driver to handle the remaining parts of the dynamic driving task.
The way they always had used autonomous is the car can do all parts of the DDT in at least some conditions (L3)... you then get to go up to L4 if it can do that AND also perform the safety fallback task. You then get to go up to L5 if it can do all of those under all conditions a human could drive.
powertoold
Active Member
I'd encourage people to post and discuss potential fatal flaws from Omar's videos.
Daniel from SD posted a part where V12 was in the right turn lane but decided to go straight instead. I don't see that as a major issue in the context of the situation in the video.
I wish others would analyze the videos and point out big issues as well, rather than getting stuck in this "drive" and levels discussion.
powertoold
Active Member
Since software is not a person, it can not drive
See how dumb using the dictionary for this is?
Not really, if you read the definition, it includes a "person" as the common case, the definition doesn't require a person, read again please
drive
verb
drive verb (USE VEHICLE)
to move or travel on land in a motor vehicle, especially as the person controlling the vehicle's movement
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
In that case it also doesn't require controlling the vehicle. At all.
Which is another reason the definition you picked was so dumb a one to pick.
Read again please
YOUR definition said:
If you think the "especially as..." clause is just optional, then a dead body in the trunk of a moving car is "driving" it because that body is moving or traveling on land in a motor vehicle.
If you now changed your mind and that clause IS important you can't sever the 'person' part from the middle of it just because that also proves you wrong
I love when folks get mad people are discussing the thing THEY brought up when it turned out they were wrong about them
Anyway there's been several folks pointing out numerous errors V12 has made in Omar videos already. Did you only read one of them?
powertoold
Active Member
In my post I literally quoted the definition for autonomous/autonomy. The car can drive without human inputs. Arguing that monitoring is a human input has some validity, but then what do you call the car taking turns, braking, stopping, etc. without any user input?
There's nuance to this conversation and you are being very black and white, which is why there's boxed in rebuttals.
We ALL know the difference between FSD and SAE levels. This thread has devolved into excessive posts that have everything to do with posting tiatribes and nothing to do with FSD v12.
Boring doesn't even begin to describe it. Time to increase the ignore list again.
Boring doesn't even begin to describe it. Time to increase the ignore list again.
It is, absolutely.
The ADAS levels are pretty rigid but words like drive, autonomy, etc. are being beat to death with semantic debates.
powertoold
Active Member
No, it's not, because the dead body is not performing any action that constitutes a verb - FSDb is a software that is processing the environment and controlling the car through it, so it is a verb, "drive"
