Yep. The Model S is an expensive car but so is its ICE competitor: the BMW 5-series. It's frighteningly easy to configure a mid-or-high-end 5-series and wind up with a >$65K car. At that price point, $70-80K for a Model S is a rational alternative if you consider the total cost of ownership. A BMW M5 will set you back $92K or more. At that price, the Model S Performance is competitive just from the standpoint of up-front purchase price and the S wins big when you consider total cost of ownership.
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Did anyone else cancel their Model S order to wait for the GEN III
- Thread starter gjunky
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- cancellation geniii Model 3
sublimaze1
8Dec2012 / Leeroy Jenkins
Of all the threads on this forum, this one seems to have the most energy. Not that it is good. Not that it is bad. It is what it is.
Now:
This is one of those, "if you don't agree with the price, then disagree and move on" - Any BMW5 or E350 series with the technology that is in this little bag of Silicon Valley Chips is going to hit right at the price that is discussed. You can make an M5 or a Brabus ... or put 22 inch shoes on the German car, and you will up the price. Add the 85 battery, or put a child rear facing seat, and you are going to up the price here as well.
Arguing the price is a place for online blogs and C&D ... but once you have ponied up the nerve and cash, it's over. One must now wait.
I agree with rrc that it is rational, particularly if you consider it as tailored to your own needs. I have four kids. All girls (that's another discussion at another time) ages 17/14/6/3 (that, too, is another discussion). The rear facing row is a nice addition that avoids me having another Armada or a Suburban.
So, again, there are several carefully played angles that Tesla has done to warrant me dropping an after tax $89K (I'm getting the tech package, 85KW, panoramic roof, rear seats, and metallic paint/leather interior). The gadget coefficient is sky high, and the lack of petrol use will certainly not hurt. I calculated $9.56 per charge at current rates at my house.
Again, I certainly won't argue with the cancellation of an order (he had his reasons) just as much as I wouldn't argue with the after tax >$100K member who buys a signature.
I drive a vanilla basic F150 pickup and have a Citroen 2CV in the barn that I use for jollies, so I certainly don't judge.
Regards
WJ
McKinney TX
P188
Now:
This is one of those, "if you don't agree with the price, then disagree and move on" - Any BMW5 or E350 series with the technology that is in this little bag of Silicon Valley Chips is going to hit right at the price that is discussed. You can make an M5 or a Brabus ... or put 22 inch shoes on the German car, and you will up the price. Add the 85 battery, or put a child rear facing seat, and you are going to up the price here as well.
Arguing the price is a place for online blogs and C&D ... but once you have ponied up the nerve and cash, it's over. One must now wait.
I agree with rrc that it is rational, particularly if you consider it as tailored to your own needs. I have four kids. All girls (that's another discussion at another time) ages 17/14/6/3 (that, too, is another discussion). The rear facing row is a nice addition that avoids me having another Armada or a Suburban.
So, again, there are several carefully played angles that Tesla has done to warrant me dropping an after tax $89K (I'm getting the tech package, 85KW, panoramic roof, rear seats, and metallic paint/leather interior). The gadget coefficient is sky high, and the lack of petrol use will certainly not hurt. I calculated $9.56 per charge at current rates at my house.
Again, I certainly won't argue with the cancellation of an order (he had his reasons) just as much as I wouldn't argue with the after tax >$100K member who buys a signature.
I drive a vanilla basic F150 pickup and have a Citroen 2CV in the barn that I use for jollies, so I certainly don't judge.
Regards
WJ
McKinney TX
P188
I have seriously considered this. I still have to drive a Volt to see what I would think but it sounds like a compromise, especially after driving the Model S....
It might be the right choice though.
@jerry33: But the Model S isn't $50K, It is $57K before tax and any options. The GENIII will be smaller (I think it is an advantage) and everything points at $30K starting price (which of course will be $37K again). So, with options and a large battery pack it will probably be $50-$55k but at that point it will at least be a fully loaded one with additional range and, I am hoping, supercharger access.
Exactly I think you are looking at the price of a LOADED Gen3 and the Base of Model S being similar. That seems to be pretty standard for most car manufacturers right ?
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
One note of concern about Gen III pricing: the $7.5k federal tax credit could very well be long gone by ~2016/2017 depending on how the country votes this November, Nov 2014 and Nov 2016. Less likely that Tesla will have manufactured 200,000 cars by then...
Incredulocious
LEAF → RAV4EV → Model 3 → Model Y
I cancelled my Model S reservation recently as well.
For me, the issue was mostly that the car is just too big for my tastes. I held out this long in hopes that I might eventually feel differently about it but my first reaction behind the wheel on the test drive was woah... this is a big, heavy car! It's certainly quick but it feels darn right huge and heavy. No offense intended and I realize of course that there are plenty of people who like big cars — I certainly see a lot of them on the road — but it's not my thing. I have been pleased to hear several Tesla employees admit (including my test drive copilot) that they also prefer (and drive) smaller cars. I figure this bodes well for future Tesla models like the Gen III — more along the lines of a BMW 3 series or Audi A3/A4.
Ironically, despite the size and weight of the Model S, things are a little cramped inside for me. At 6'4", the non-sunroof version was clearly not going to work and it dismayed me that there was less leg and head room in the back seat of the Model S than in my LEAF. I have to slouch in the backseat of the Model S where I can sit upright in the back of the LEAF. Yeah, that's to be expected given that beautiful roof line while also squeezing a battery pack underneath. The LEAF was obviously designed more for practicality over looks and I do appreciate all the room but it would be great to have a nicer compromise. I was in fact very surprised to find the LEAF to be so big inside — it didn't look it from the photos. (Yeah, I know, I don't sit in the back seat but I'm happy to have all the room for my passengers as well as the ease of tossing my XL-sized mountain bike in back with the seats down.) Fun story: LEAF reservations were already closed when I first had a chance to test drive it back in November of 2010. But I was so impressed with the room and zippiness of the LEAF that I decided I didn't want to find myself locked out and waiting again and reserved a Model S the next day! However, just six months later I found out it was possible to jump the line and pick up an "orphaned" LEAF (abandoned by a reservation holder) — and I've been enjoying it ever since.
Now I'd still love to have the couple hundred mile range, the sportier looks and handling but eventually I decided it's a lot of money to spend on a car that doesn't really suit me. And I would really want to have all wheel drive to have it serve as my only vehicle. I have a gas RAV4 now for road trips and getting up to the mountains without having to deal with snow chains. I think the RAV4 is a great-sized compact SUV — plenty of room, pretty efficient, looks good, etc. If only that new Tesla-powered RAV4 had a larger battery pack and AWD — I'd run down now and buy it and be happy to let go of my wish for a sporty AWD hatchback EV for awhile! (Yeah, I hear ya, but the Model X is just as big or bigger than the Model S — and though I haven't seen it in person, I don't really like the looks of the X.)
So, here's to Tesla's continued and future success and hoping they make the car I want to buy (before somebody else does) as I continue to hold on to my TSLA shares!
For me, the issue was mostly that the car is just too big for my tastes. I held out this long in hopes that I might eventually feel differently about it but my first reaction behind the wheel on the test drive was woah... this is a big, heavy car! It's certainly quick but it feels darn right huge and heavy. No offense intended and I realize of course that there are plenty of people who like big cars — I certainly see a lot of them on the road — but it's not my thing. I have been pleased to hear several Tesla employees admit (including my test drive copilot) that they also prefer (and drive) smaller cars. I figure this bodes well for future Tesla models like the Gen III — more along the lines of a BMW 3 series or Audi A3/A4.
Ironically, despite the size and weight of the Model S, things are a little cramped inside for me. At 6'4", the non-sunroof version was clearly not going to work and it dismayed me that there was less leg and head room in the back seat of the Model S than in my LEAF. I have to slouch in the backseat of the Model S where I can sit upright in the back of the LEAF. Yeah, that's to be expected given that beautiful roof line while also squeezing a battery pack underneath. The LEAF was obviously designed more for practicality over looks and I do appreciate all the room but it would be great to have a nicer compromise. I was in fact very surprised to find the LEAF to be so big inside — it didn't look it from the photos. (Yeah, I know, I don't sit in the back seat but I'm happy to have all the room for my passengers as well as the ease of tossing my XL-sized mountain bike in back with the seats down.) Fun story: LEAF reservations were already closed when I first had a chance to test drive it back in November of 2010. But I was so impressed with the room and zippiness of the LEAF that I decided I didn't want to find myself locked out and waiting again and reserved a Model S the next day! However, just six months later I found out it was possible to jump the line and pick up an "orphaned" LEAF (abandoned by a reservation holder) — and I've been enjoying it ever since.
Now I'd still love to have the couple hundred mile range, the sportier looks and handling but eventually I decided it's a lot of money to spend on a car that doesn't really suit me. And I would really want to have all wheel drive to have it serve as my only vehicle. I have a gas RAV4 now for road trips and getting up to the mountains without having to deal with snow chains. I think the RAV4 is a great-sized compact SUV — plenty of room, pretty efficient, looks good, etc. If only that new Tesla-powered RAV4 had a larger battery pack and AWD — I'd run down now and buy it and be happy to let go of my wish for a sporty AWD hatchback EV for awhile! (Yeah, I hear ya, but the Model X is just as big or bigger than the Model S — and though I haven't seen it in person, I don't really like the looks of the X.)
So, here's to Tesla's continued and future success and hoping they make the car I want to buy (before somebody else does) as I continue to hold on to my TSLA shares!
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Sorry, what I meant to say was that after seeing and driving the Model S, a stripped down base model Gen III car will pale in comparison. Probably less passenger space, less acceleration, range of 160mi or less, basic features, etc. I think when you see the base model Gen III it will give you more of an appreciation for the base Model S.
I'm imagining the Gen III might look something like the Lexus 200CT hybrid??
Certainly if they make it with a three box design, like the Model S, that's what will happen. I'm hoping the GenIII will look like it belongs in the 21st century. I would think by the time the GenIII comes out the minimum range would be 250 miles or so and 500+ miles on the high end version.
I wouldn't bet on that kind of range for the GenIII. By then, batteries should have around 25% more power storage per cell. Tesla can use that to increase the power in the battery pack or reduce the weight, size and cost of the battery pack.
For the GenIII, my bet is they'll reduce the size, weight and cost of the pack. That along with the smaller car is what might let them hit a $30K price point with a 160 mile range and maintain their margin. They might get more than 160 miles out of the low end pack because of the lower weight of the car. Or not. We'll have to see.
I suspect the GenIII will come in around 3900 lbs.
For the GenIII, my bet is they'll reduce the size, weight and cost of the pack. That along with the smaller car is what might let them hit a $30K price point with a 160 mile range and maintain their margin. They might get more than 160 miles out of the low end pack because of the lower weight of the car. Or not. We'll have to see.
I suspect the GenIII will come in around 3900 lbs.
I would expect there to be a low end ($30K'ish) version with something like a 150 mile range and a high end version of 300 miles or more (really would like to see 400). Just having a GenIII with a 120-150 mile range would IMHO make this car a failure in the market as it would compete with all the other EV cars on the market at that time and the fact that a car like the Leaf is really not selling in the quantities that Tesla is looking for in the GenIII. It needs to have a longer range version and the option to use the Supercharger Network.
If I recall correctly, the Model S (Whitestar) was supposed to have Roadster range at half the price. So I was expecting a $50K Model S with 300-mile range. Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm not the only based on my readings on this board (I think someone has a brochure from 2009 implying this?). The Model S with Roadster range is priced at $67K before incentives, so that's like 2/3 the price of the Roadster (when it launched, not when Tesla raised prices).
I think GenIII's lowest-priced version will be $45K before government incentives. After federal rebates (which will still be in place after Obama's re-election), the cost will be $37,500 plus options. That version will have a 160-200 mile battery pack (35-40KWh pack which will result in better miles/KWh given the reduced weight). The next battery pack will be $7500 additional, for a $45k car with a 230-270 mile range. Elon will justify this by pointing out this is the same as the "average selling price" of a BMW 3-series (which I'm guessing is much closer to $40k than it is to $30k.) "Better performance, more luxury, more style, less environmental impact, less total cost of ownership than the 3-series". I can see that as Elon's quote in a few years.
I think GenIII's lowest-priced version will be $45K before government incentives. After federal rebates (which will still be in place after Obama's re-election), the cost will be $37,500 plus options. That version will have a 160-200 mile battery pack (35-40KWh pack which will result in better miles/KWh given the reduced weight). The next battery pack will be $7500 additional, for a $45k car with a 230-270 mile range. Elon will justify this by pointing out this is the same as the "average selling price" of a BMW 3-series (which I'm guessing is much closer to $40k than it is to $30k.) "Better performance, more luxury, more style, less environmental impact, less total cost of ownership than the 3-series". I can see that as Elon's quote in a few years.
I think the lower total cost of ownership went out the door when they started charging $600 per year for maintenance (without the ranger service). I think I paid about $80/year for mine with a service of about $400 every couple years for my ICE. Granted, I don't drive a lot. You have to drive a lot, or have European gas prices..., to make up the difference in gas. Tesla should really reconsider this maintenance scheme, especially for the GenIII.
Yes, I realize that but it would still be twice as much as I have been paying for my ICE maintenance and an electric car is supposed to be easier.
It is waayy too early for Gen III service plan pricing. Tesla still has a lot of growing to do. In three years we should have a really good idea of how much it will cost and what you get for that cost. The early adopters are taking the hits for all of us that will come later.
Let me say - thanks early adopters.
Let me say - thanks early adopters.
AndyM
Member
While I don't share your position, this is the best forum post I've read all week. Thank you for bringing back sanity and critical reasoning.
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Let me say, thanks to the Roadster owners, the true early adopters.
Compared to the issues they've had to roll through, the Model S experience is relatively luxurious.
Rifleman
Now owns 2 Model S's!!!
I cancelled my reservation yesterday, and leased a Volt for the next 36 months. I really want the Model S, but the service plan pushed a car that was already a major stretch for my budget into the "unaffordable zone". My plan is to drive the Volt for the years, and to try to be near the front of the line for Gen III.
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